# What is Punk?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [August 8, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896 "2011-08-08T02:06:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/81 "2011-08-12T03:14:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> New Rose by The Damned was released on October 22nd, 1976, on the Stiff Records label, catalogue number BUY 6. That’s the song I was quoting from, and the song that is generally recognised as the first punk release.
Thanks. I did a search on the lyrics but I missed the one hit for The Damned on the first page. Joe Jackson burned that line into my brain.
Makes for an interesting question, though. Do spoken word intros count as lyrics? I never really thought of “Is she really going out with him?” as an actual lyric in “Leader of the Pack.” The lyrics start with “I met him at the candy store.”
If so, maybe punk really starts with “Is he really goin’ out with 'er?” 🆒
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### Author:  [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/82 "2011-08-12T03:16:47Z")
Eugh. I didn’t want to get dragged into a historical debate…
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### Author:  [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/83 "2011-08-12T03:17:48Z")
> [@punch\_line\_loser](#):
>
> That’s fucking stupid. Punk wasn’t about regressing, it was about loosing the restraints and doing whatever you wanted. Punk isn’t anathema to anything, that was the whole point. Any kind of rules, especially the kind that you are suggesting, are the real anathema to punk.
You appear to be confusing punk with psychedelia. Punk, musically, has always been about restraints - 3 chords, 2 minutes, and one message.
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### Author:  [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/84 "2011-08-12T03:20:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> You appear to be confusing punk with psychedelia. Punk, musically, has always been about restraints - 3 chords, 2 minutes, and one message.
That’s the classic misconception, but that’s never what punk was about. One message? What, exactly is the “one message”? Punk was “I can make music just as good as that asshole on the 30 foot stage up there, and I don’t need a fireworks display and 20 years of practice to do it.” The idea of restraints is what made people think punk was dead by 1980, when really they just didn’t get what it was about at all. “3 chords, 2 minutes” was applied retroactively for marketing purposes - to actually sum up the movement that way is not giving enough credit to how innovative the music was.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/85 "2011-08-12T04:00:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> New Rose by The Damned was released on October 22nd, 1976, on the Stiff Records label, catalogue number BUY 6. That’s the song I was quoting from, and the song that is generally recognised as the first punk release.
Yer shitting me. Who, might I ask, ‘generally recognizes’ that as the first punk release? Cite, bitch.
[http://www.damned12.freeserve.co.uk/brianjames\_int.htm](http://www.damned12.freeserve.co.uk/brianjames_int.htm)
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Please give us some background info on yourself (i.e. where you were born, raised, educated etc)
> Brian James "Well, I was born in Hammersmith, West London. I spent the first, what 7.. 8 years in London then the family moved down to Crawley, in Sussex. So from there, until my mid-teens I was living there.
> That’s where I did my education, what there was of it.. before they kicked me out. I didn’t like to go too much, I preferred to play guitar with my mates. My mates mum used to write notes for him (sick notes to excuse him from school).. but my mum weren’t having any of that ! The minute I reached 15 years of age.. and with the Easter break coming up.. the headmaster called me in and he said “..Well ! You don’t want to be here, and we don’t want you here so you might as well just go now.”.
> I thought “Great!!!”. Which meant I could start playing my guitar.. and I took on between 50 and a 100 jobs everything you can think of.. until my band Bastard moved over to Brussels, because we couldn’t really get any gigs in this country what with our name and that.. we were kind of like a punk band before the punk thing came along.. we were drawing influences from the MC5 and the Stooges.. and the Pretty Things.. and we couldn’t really get gigs like.. apart from with bands like the Pink Fairies who would help us.. put us on their bill.. free festivals and all that. But after a while our singer got offered a job in Brussels in a studio over there.. the first 24 track studio in Europe, which was called Morgan Studios. Then we were faced with a decision - either we all go to Brussels or we split the band up. No one wanted to split the band up so we all fucked off to Brussels.. and it was great because everybody over there, the French speaking people in particular, already knew about Lou Reed and Iggy Pop and all this sort of stuff.. and our music really went down a storm.
>
> 2. What were the early days really like - did you ever think The Damned would still be going 30+ years later?!?
> Brian James "No ! Right at the very, very beginning we had this thing where it was ‘us against the world’ even though there was a couple of other punk bands like the Pistols who had been about and The Stranglers who had been around for a while, if you include them in the punk thing - which I do.. and The Clash, kind of one of the late starters. There was that kind of thing, but once things started going down hill.. and Rat left and it weren’t The Damned for me anyway, because it was Rat and I who had started The Damned. You know ?!
>
> 3. The Damned were the first of the UK new wave punk bands to play America - did you receive a warm reception and did the Yankees understand the UK punk scene?
> Brian James "They didn’t understand the UK punk scene. We were the first punk band over there. Our first gigs were in CBGBs.. and they didn’t really know what to expect. The album had been out in Europe but wasn’t released in the States apart from on import, and we were playing with this band called The Dead Boys. They were considered the wildest band in town. We had heard all of these stories before we went over there like “The Dead Boys are going to kick your arse !”, and all of this sort of stuff ! We thought “Oh shit!” how big are they.. how many ?! ..what are they carrying ? knives ?! You know ! Because I had just been to the cinema to see Mean Streets a couple of weeks before we went over so.. so I thought, cor blimey.. this is going to be fun(!). But they were great guys. I think they had.. well they heard obviously heard of Iggy Pop, MC5 and all of that.. and they embraced us, once they could see that we wore our influences on our sleeves, you know.. and we did it well.
(That’s 77, by the way)
The Ramones played their first gig in England on July 4th, '76.
The Damned played their second gig _ever_ on July 6th, 1976. They were backing the Sex Pistols.
… so clearly, the Sex Pistols are not punk. Because they came before The Damned.
First new wave punk band to record, yes. Inspired west coast hardcore, yes. But fuck me if they’re punk and the Ramones and Iggy Pop aren’t.
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### Author:  [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/86 "2011-08-12T04:04:37Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#):
>
> First new wave punk band to record, yes. Inspired west coast hardcore, yes. But fuck me if they’re punk and the Ramones and Iggy Pop aren’t.
The first ENGLISH punk band to record, and one of many influences on west coast hardcore.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/87 "2011-08-12T04:08:03Z")
Well, New Wave was largely an english movement, and certainly started there, so I went for greater specificity.
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### Author:  [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/88 "2011-08-12T04:08:36Z")
The Love album by the Cult is seminal Punk, and if you don’t agree, I will kill you. Gothic and emo also have their roots in punk.
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### Author:  [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/89 "2011-08-12T04:11:30Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#):
>
> Yer shitting me. Who, might I ask, ‘generally recognizes’ that as the first punk release? Cite, bitch.
[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Rose), although the reference appears to be to a biography of The Damned.
> [@](#):
>
> … so clearly, the Sex Pistols are not punk. Because they came before The Damned.
The Sex Pistols released “Anarchy In The UK” five weeks after “New Rose”.
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### Author:  [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/90 "2011-08-12T04:49:47Z")
Okay, a couple of issues here:
As far as new wave goes, you’re probably right. The history of new wave in the states is tangled - my take is, it developed alongside punk but was basically associated with a different aesthetic and a different stance on the part of the bands but still reflected the same core ideas as punk. Talking Heads, Blondie, etc. Its history in the US has more to do with marketing than music. In the UK the term had a slightly different meaning than in the US, and by that definition then the Damned were the first new wave band to release a single, as “new wave” pertains to music in the UK. This is all nitpicking, though.
**Steophan** , not that it really matters, but the Wikipedia page for punk lists Patti Smith’s single as the first punk single ([Punk rock - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#New_York_City)). In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter when the physical releases happened. The Damned didn’t even form until 1976, two years after Television played their first show at CBGB’s and formed the nucleus of the punk scene in New York (for that matter, the Ramones played their first gig that same year), and one year after the release of _The Dictators Go Girl Crazy!_, which led to the foundation of _Punk_ magazine and the naming of the scene in the first place. Even by your incredibly myopic definition of punk rock, the style had been well established long before the Damned (or the Pistols, for that matter) even got together. The Ramones, the Dead Boys, the Suicide Commandos, and even The Voidoids (who would provide McLaren with the inspiration for the Sex Pistols) were driving the punk scene in the US before punk was becoming a cultural force in the UK, and this isn’t even counting all of the punk bands who didn’t play that style of punk music - the first band to even identify themselves as “punk music” were Suicide, and they were advertising their gigs as such as early as 1971.
**devilsknew** , you’re absolutely right - Goth rock, emo, hardcore, twee, indie rock… all variations on the same theme, if you ask me.
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### Author:  [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/91 "2011-08-12T05:24:22Z")
**Steophan** and **Exapno Mapcase** know the score.
😉
You should all just accept the correct definition of Punk = U.K. bands only. Life is so much simpler after you do.
No more endless bickering about whether Green Day and The Offspring were punk or not, no more co-opting alternative American rock bands from the 60’s and 70’s under an imaginary “punk umbrella”, and no more fighting with anonymous people on the Internet.
No more tossing and turning at night worrying about whether your favorite band is punk or not, either. You’ll have much less stress, and be a happier person.
And with all the free time you’ll save you can get back to the important things in life, like getting drunk, hanging out with friends, and actually listening to music instead of just arguing about it.
_mounts bicycle_
Trust me on this one. You’ll be glad you did.
_rides off into the sunset and away from this silly thread_
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### Author:  [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/92 "2011-08-12T05:29:30Z")
> [@Suil\_Dubh](#):
>
> **Steophan** and **Exapno Mapcase** know the score.
>
> 😉
>
> You should all just accept the correct definition of Punk = U.K. bands only. Life is so much simpler after you do.
I can’t accept that definition because it’s completely ludicrous. The first bands to play the music came from the States, the first bands to be described as such came from the States, and the first bands to identify themselves as such came from the States. The origin of the name is an American magazine. In what twisted universe are American bands _ineligible_ to be called punk? It’s not nationalism, dude, it’s straight history. And the facts have borne that out.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/93 "2011-08-12T08:03:04Z")
> [@gaffa](#):
>
> … I’m trying to find the cite about the guys who would eventually form The Clash meeting the Ramones before they played their first concert in London. They Were moaning about wanting to be in a band, but not being good enough. Joey reassured them that it didn’t matter - “Come see us. We suck!”
Joe Strummer in [_End of the Century_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368711/)?
CMC fnord!
! actually, IPS, 'cause I do remember Joe talking about crawling through the dressing room window to meet The Ramones who were kinda stunned by just how big they were in England (in the end everywhere) compared to their status/success in America (a phenomena already well known by American jazz and blues musicians. :().
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### Author:  [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/94 "2011-08-12T09:26:37Z")
Maybe this will settle this ridiculous argument but I doubt it:
Can any of you folks tell me when and where the standard punk uniform of '76-'77 of spiky hair, ripped shirts and jeans held together with safety pins originated? You all think you have the definitive answer to “What is Punk?” you should be able give this info without a moment’s thought.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/95 "2011-08-12T10:40:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Rose), although the reference appears to be to a biography of The Damned.
> The Sex Pistols released “Anarchy In The UK” five weeks after “New Rose”.
So what? Only record releases matter? The Sex Pistols were a going concern fuckloads before the Damned were even a band. Are you actually going to sit here, show me your balls, and tell me that the only time a band matters is when they get into a studio and release a single? Not an album. A single. (Ramones, Blitzkrieg Bop, April 1976. But not punk, according to you.) (Piss Factory, June '74. Also not punk)
You’re telling me music only exists when you kill it. Fuck that.
(I’m pretty sure Richard Hell, Kolak, but fuck uniforms. Uniforms are the opposite of punk.)
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### Author:  [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/96 "2011-08-12T11:00:59Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#):
>
> Maybe this will settle this ridiculous argument but I doubt it:
>
> Can any of you folks tell me when and where the standard punk uniform of '76-'77 of spiky hair, ripped shirts and jeans held together with safety pins originated? You all think you have the definitive answer to “What is Punk?” you should be able give this info without a moment’s thought.
**E-Sabbath** is right. Richard Hell (of the Voidoids, Malcolm McLaren’s acknowledged model for the Sex Pistols once he took over their management) was wearing distressed clothes long before the Sex Pistols even formed, and Suicide had already made it central to their image half a decade or more before. Not that the uniform is important, anyway, or that there was truly even one uniform. One might say the uniform for metalheads was leather and studs as made popular by Rob Halford of Judas Priest; you’re telling me metal wasn’t around until _British Steel_?
Anyway the discussion wasn’t supposed to be about who was the first punk or what it looked like, it was supposed to be about what it means, and there seem to be enough misconceptions flying around about _that_ to start with.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/97 "2011-08-12T11:26:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> Good songs, not punk. Television had more in common with prog than punk, and Patti Smith was art rock. It’s quite simple - you can’t be punk and be progressive and/or arty - they are anathema. That’s why The Clash and The Damned weren’t punk after their first few albums.
>
> To be honest, “Yes Sir, I Will” wasn’t punk, but I wouldn’t necessarily say that to the face of a skinheaded vegan with CRASS patches on his studded pleather jacket…
:rolleyes:
**punch line loser** , again, is this really worth debating with? Patti Smith isn’t punk? Why engage?
I laid out my definition of punk - you did not comment. If you don’t want to comment on something that directly spoke to the Thread title, what straw man argument are you really looking to have them? Why \*your \*definition of punk is bestest? No wonder you actually engaged **Steophan**.
You have stated a couple of times that the Clash suck. Could you please attempt to engage in an interesting conversation and state your case as to _why_?
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### Author:  [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/98 "2011-08-12T11:37:10Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> :rolleyes:
>
> **punch line loser** , again, is this really worth debating with? Patti Smith isn’t punk? Why engage?
>
> I laid out my definition of punk - you did not comment. If you don’t want to comment on something that directly spoke to the Thread title, what straw man argument are you really looking to have them? Why \*your \*definition of punk is bestest? No wonder you actually engaged **Steophan**.
>
> You have stated a couple of times that the Clash suck. Could you please attempt to engage in an interesting conversation and state your case as to _why_?
As a matter of fact I like your definition(s) better than the others I’ve seen - I was basically referring to it when refuting these other fools, but I guess there was no way for you to know that. My only issue, I guess, would be about the sound, because even though in the popular imagination that’s what it means, the sound is actually tied up in the other aspects of the music. I consider the Tough Alliance a punk band, even though they’re all bouncy synths and pop melodies - there’s some song on _A New Chance_ where he sings “Baby I will always be there” and “fuck you” in more or less the same breath; also using “blah” as a singing syllable in the chorus seems pretty punk to me. Maybe you didn’t intend to set the definitions out as separate from each other, but that’s what I would have to say about that.
As for the Clash, I just think the songs are totally boring and more often than not barely even catchy. From what I’ve heard, there’s not much of a knack for melody there, and as a result I just don’t buy all the bluster. Definitely punk, but I just don’t get it.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/99 "2011-08-12T11:52:25Z")
> [@punch\_line\_loser](#):
>
> As a matter of fact I like your definition(s) better than the others I’ve seen - I was basically referring to it when refuting these other fools, but I guess there was no way for you to know that.
Okay, thanks and yeah, hadn’t seen that.
> [@](#):
>
> My only issue, I guess, would be about the sound, because even though in the popular imagination that’s what it means, the sound is actually tied up in the other aspects of the music. I consider the Tough Alliance a punk band, even though they’re all bouncy synths and pop melodies - there’s some song on _A New Chance_ where he sings “Baby I will always be there” and “fuck you” in more or less the same breath; also using “blah” as a singing syllable in the chorus seems pretty punk to me. Maybe you didn’t intend to set the definitions out as separate from each other, but that’s what I would have to say about that.
Yep - punk is what it is and even my attempt at identifying those three major “traits” is a working attempt at best. And someone can have a punky attitude and not play music that is punky to me at all. I would argue that about the only fresh things Lady GaGa brings to her equation is an edgy wardrobe and punk attitude - both sprinkled on top of an entree made from very familiar ingredients. Let’s call it “Refried Madonna”. 😉
> [@](#):
>
> As for the Clash, I just think the songs are totally boring and more often than not barely even catchy. From what I’ve heard, there’s not much of a knack for melody there, and as a result I just don’t buy all the bluster. Definitely punk, but I just don’t get it.
Not melodic? I’d revisit that - listen to \*\*[Career Opportunities](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZOrkPIZ1JU)\*\*and tell me that it is not melodically designed to be in a freakin’ Broadway musical. Totally accessible and memorable, with a great chorus hook. That’s songcraft, my friend.
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### Author:  [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-punk/591896/100 "2011-08-12T12:00:20Z")
> [@punch\_line\_loser](#):
>
> Anyway the discussion wasn’t supposed to be about who was the first punk or what it looked like, it was supposed to be about what it means, and there seem to be enough misconceptions flying around about _that_ to start with.
You can’t discuss punk without discussing what it looks like - the image is at least as important as the music. I get that you don’t like that, and that you’re coming at the question from the point of view of a self-identified punk. But you need to try to look at it from the outside, as you would any other movement.
You are focusing purely on the music, and missing the point entirely.
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