# What is Racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865 "2004-03-28T04:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/21 "2004-03-28T16:25:30Z")
> [@Science Girl](#): > > Are Whites uniquely critisized for ethnocentrism when all other racial groups display the same ethnocentrism for their own group? You mean like this one? > [@Science Girl](#): > > LOL. Ya, wouldn’t that be something, me a White girl. Actually, I’m glad I am not White, I’d just be part of the White sheep masses waiting to go to “Heaven” where you get year round free buffet of pork ribs and beer. And I’m sorry to tell you but > [@](#): > > Actually, if I had to pick a race, I’d want to be Jewish, I’d have high intelligence, great wealth, and great social status. Jews ARE white. At least here in the states. In Israel, or other parts of the Middle East, you might find ones who are swarthy, but they still probably be considered “white”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/22 "2004-03-28T16:35:55Z")
> [@](#): > > All races have been racist in the past. But only white racist history is taught in schools and shown in the media: the racism of all other races in the past are hidden from public view. Oh, piffle. Every time Farrakhan makes one of his idiotic claims about race (or sends one of hius bully boys out to a college campus to do the same) his racism gets reported in the news. Al Sharpton has been keeping his head down on the issue since he decided to play in politics, but he was routinely pointed out as a black racist when he was at trhe height of his demagoguery. There are a number of posters on this board who habitually attack Jesse Jackson for perceived racism. The reason that racism is a big deal in the U.S. is because the U.S. is currently dealing with the effects of racist policies that were written into law _using race as their criteria_. People do enjoy fragmenting along various social/class/ethnic/religious/etc. lines. Few places have enshrined _race_ in law the way that the U.S. has. That makes the topic of race more pertinent to the study of history in the U.S. Speaking as a white guy, I do not “feel bad” about past racism and I certainly do not feel any shame for actions in which I have not engaged. On the other hand, since I want my children and grandchildren to grow up in a better world than the one in which I live, I believe that addressing current racial issues (which often requires understanding past racial actions) is important. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/23 "2004-03-28T16:50:03Z")
Was there something lacking in [the thread, “Define what racism really is”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=247566) that made it necessary to open another one on exactly the same subject? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/24 "2004-03-28T17:01:21Z")
Once again, show tunes show us the path to wisdom: > [@](#): > > Everyone’s a little bit racist, alright? > Alright! > Bigotry has never been exclusively white > If we all could just admit > That we are racist a little bit > Even though we all know that it’s wrong > Maybe it would help us get along! “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist” from _Avenue Q_ ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/25 "2004-03-28T17:46:27Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** **Science Girl** , please see [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4693079#post4693079). ---
**Author:** ![Science\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Science\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Science_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/26 "2004-03-28T20:43:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **SG:** _Actually, if I had to pick a race, I’d want to be Jewish, I’d have high intelligence, great wealth, and great social status._ > > Unless, of course, you turned out to be one of the many Jews who are dumb, poor, and/or lower-class. **Science Girl** , you are not exactly covering yourself with glory so far in the fight against ignorance. Statistically speaking, Jews are the most successful ethnic group. ---
**Author:** ![Science\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Science\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Science_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/27 "2004-03-28T20:45:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **SG:** \*Actually, I’m glad I am not White, I’d just be part of the White sheep masses waiting to go to “Heaven” where you get year round free buffet of pork ribs and beer. \* > > Well, you said you intended this thread to draw attention to the phenomenon of non-white racism against whites, and I guess you’re succeeding, although perhaps not quite in the way you intended. I didn’t say I myself am not an ethnocentrist; I just said Whites are the only ones criticized for it when in fact all races are ethnocentric. ---
**Author:** ![Science\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Science\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Science_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/28 "2004-03-28T20:48:52Z")
> [@Master Control](#): > > You mean like this one? > > And I’m sorry to tell you but > > Jews ARE white. At least here in the states. In Israel, or other parts of the Middle East, you might find ones who are swarthy, but they still probably be considered “white”. American Jews are mostly Ashkenazi, a Semetic group, not White. Jews and Arabs are from the same original Semitic group. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/29 "2004-03-28T20:53:17Z")
> [@Science Girl](#): > > American Jews are mostly Ashkenazi, a Semetic group, not White. Jews and Arabs are from the same original Semitic group. What? American Jews are, to a large degree, eastern European. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/30 "2004-03-28T20:56:04Z")
> [@Science Girl](#): > > I just said Whites are the only ones criticized for it when in fact all races are ethnocentric. Incorrect. _Some members_ of all races are ethnocentric. You’re making it sound like _everyone_ believes that their own race is superior, which is simply not true. ---
**Author:** ![Science\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Science\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Science_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/31 "2004-03-28T21:04:47Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > What? American Jews are, to a large degree, eastern European. They allowed a very small percentage of Eastern Whites into their gene pool, but they have maintained their genetic uniqueness. Judaism, the religion of ethnic Jews, never sought converts, like Christianity and Islam. It has been thought of as a religion for Semites and only Semites. But on the rare occasion when a Gentile really wants to convert, if he completes all the requirements, he may be allowed in, but rarely given full status as an official Jew. Professor Kevin MacDonald discusses this in detail, see [http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books.htm](http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Science\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Science\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Science_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/32 "2004-03-28T21:08:06Z")
> [@Joe Random](#): > > Incorrect. _Some members_ of all races are ethnocentric. You’re making it sound like _everyone_ believes that their own race is superior, which is simply not true. I did not use the word “superior” but rather people have an affinity for their own ethnic group and culture. Just look at who is marrying who: interracial marriages are rare compared to intra-racial marriages. Sure there are exceptions, but I am looking at averages, not absolutes. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/33 "2004-03-28T21:10:31Z")
> [@Science Girl](#): > > They allowed a very small percentage of Eastern Whites into their gene pool, but they have maintained their genetic uniqueness. Judaism, the religion of ethnic Jews, never sought converts, like Christianity and Islam. It has been thought of as a religion for Semites and only Semites. But on the rare occasion when a Gentile really wants to convert, if he completes all the requirements, he may be allowed in, but rarely given full status as an official Jew. Professor Kevin MacDonald discusses this in detail, see [http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books.htm](http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books.htm) I’m sure my Jewish friends would be interested in hearing that, including the large populations of Jews in Europe and central Asia. But then, your scope seems to be limited to whatever book you’re reading at the time, so… ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/34 "2004-03-28T21:14:13Z")
> [@Science Girl](#): > > I did not use the word “superior” but rather people have an affinity for their own ethnic group and culture. Just look at who is marrying who: interracial marriages are rare compared to intra-racial marriages. Sure there are exceptions, but I am looking at averages, not absolutes. People also have an “affinity” for their own political group, fiscal class, statehood, etc. Sure, there are exceptions, but I am looking at averages, not absolutes. I don’t know personally of one person (other than you, I guess) who would think twice about dating someone outside of their ethnicity. In fact, many people consider different ethnicities sexy, such as the “asian fetish.” ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/35 "2004-03-28T21:20:21Z")
> [@Science Girl](#): > > I did not use the word “superior” but rather people have an affinity for their own ethnic group and culture. One of the definitions of “ethnocentric” is “Belief in the superiority of one’s own ethnic group”, so using that word in a thread about racism is bound to give people the wrong impression. Perhaps another, made up word (like “ethnophilic”) would be more appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/36 "2004-03-28T21:21:04Z")
> [@Science Girl](#): > > But on the rare occasion when a Gentile really wants to convert, if he completes all the requirements, he may be allowed in, but rarely given full status as an official Jew. Professor Kevin MacDonald discusses this in detail, see [http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books.htm](http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books.htm) Not true. Jewish law requires that a person fully converted be treated exactly as any other Jew. (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De’ah, 268:12 .) So does Israeli secular law ([Cite](http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0804/jpn0804e.htm)). You offer “Professor Kevin MacDonald” as a cite for your claim, but the page you link to has no such information. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/37 "2004-03-28T21:29:16Z")
> [@](#): > > American Jews are mostly Ashkenazi, a Semetic group, not White. Jews and Arabs are from the same original Semitic group. Semitic is a linguistic category, so being Semitic does not preclude being white. The peoples of the Levant and the lands extending Eastward have always been categorized as Caucasian in the outmoded “racial” groupings–meaning that they are white by any normal categorization. > [@](#): > > But on the rare occasion when a Gentile really wants to convert, if he completes all the requirements, he may be allowed in, but rarely given full status as an official Jew. This is simply false. There are no rights or responsibilities bestowed or imposed on Jews by Jewish law that do not apply equally to all. (The single exception would be that a non-Jew could never become a priest, since that is a charter handed from father to son. However, the same is true of all other Jews who are not born Levites.) When considering “Professor” MacDonald’s anti-Jewish polemics, one should take note of such obvious lies and consign his silliness to the trash bin where they belong. It is entirely possible that some small number of people who have converted to Judaism have not been welcomed by all (any more than Jews who have converted to Christianity have always been welcomed). However, within a generation, the conversion of one’s ancestors are forgotten and the children of people who have converted are not segregated in any way. The Jewish people do not have any secret lists of “real” Jews vs converts. ---
**Author:** ![Science\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Science\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Science_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/38 "2004-03-28T21:41:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not true. Jewish law requires that a person fully converted be treated exactly as any other Jew. (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De’ah, 268:12 .) So does Israeli secular law ([Cite](http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0804/jpn0804e.htm)). > > You offer “Professor Kevin MacDonald” as a cite for your claim, but the page you link to has no such information. > > - Rick Well, since you are not interested in taking the time to go through MacDonald’s works, here is a compilation of relevant exerpts from his book: [http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/ethnic.htm](http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/ethnic.htm) Judaism has been a very ethnocentric religion. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/39 "2004-03-28T22:14:04Z")
> [@](#): > > here is a compilation of relevant exerpts from his book: They arte, indeed, relevant. They demonstrate that there is nop scholarship in his series of cherry-picked phrases from Scripture and no historical evidence for any of his sweeping claims. For example: > [@](#): > > When the Jews were in Egypt, they inserted themselves between the ruling class and the masses, acting as a tight, cohesive, and literate tribe that became wealthy by acting collectively. When they were exiled to Babylon about 2600 years ago, they polished up their religious/tribal strategy in religious texts that have been used since then to produce a religion that is “this worldly.” This is simply false. There is no evidence at all for his claims regarding the period in Egypt, so he is simply making up lies. (There are a number of scholars–some Jewish–who even doubt that the Jewish people were actually captive in Egypt, and there is certainly no evidence that “inserted themselves between the ruling class and the masses, acting as a tight, cohesive, and literate tribe that became wealthy.”) Similarly, while the period in Babylon saw efforts by Ezekiel to remind the Jews that they were a people whom God could restore to their place near Jerusalem, it also saw very clear calls by Isaiah to the Jews to recognize that they needed to extend their message justice to all the other nations–hardly a call to clannishness. In fact, following the return from the Babylonian exile, Jews began to take up roles as traders across the entire Euro-Asian-North African world and eventually, partially by accepting (not seeking) converts, grew to a position where they were the largest distinct minority scattered across all the the Ptolomaic and, later, Roman world. So much for exclusivity and ethnocentricity. If his “scholarship” is based on lies and cherry-picked statements, and since nothing on that page actually demonstrates factual support for his broad claims, I see no reason to accept any of his other errors. ---
**Author:** ![Science\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Science\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Science_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865/40 "2004-03-29T02:41:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If his “scholarship” is based on lies and cherry-picked statements, and since nothing on that page actually demonstrates factual support for his broad claims, I see no reason to accept any of his other errors. I trust Professor MacDonald’s work. But I believe you are entitled to your opinion. Regards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/236865.md?page=3)