# What is racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334 "2013-11-07T15:15:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/201 "2013-11-21T06:20:39Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I wasn’t clear, and I apologize. > > Within the overall group of domestic dogs, we don’t have any problem taking out subpopulations that we have selectively bred and assigning to them different characteristics that we agree are genetically driven. > > We don’t have any struggle worrying that the intellect of a border collie may be different from that of an italian greyhound, or that their physical skills might be different, and that those differences might be underpinned by genes. In fact, we assume they are underpinned by genes because we have artificially manipulated nature to select for specific gene-based variations. And of course nature does this herself, over time, which is why clinal variations eventually produce quite different average gene pools once two clades are widely enough separated. > > The point I am trying (poorly) to make, is that we do not demand a geneset with identified functions to decide there is “genetic evidence” for a difference, with a single exeption: We (at least iiandyiiii demands that if the functional difference is non-superficial, and the species in question is human. I really object to iiandyiiii’s repeated use of the phrase, “no genetic evidence” when what he should be saying is “no genetic proof.” The only reason he applies that standard to humans is that he thinks saying otherwise is racist. It isn’t because he’d apply that standard to any other characteristic, or any other species under investigation. I think this is very well put. It’s that the ramifications of intelligence having a genetic role that may align with races are just too uncomfortable to contemplate. Some believe that the world should be egalitarian, and assume nature has the same bias. It doesn’t. And I still don’t see how people can accept how genetics can account for differences we can see on the outside, while being so certain that an organ on the inside—the brain—is off limits for any race-aligned differences. And yes, people constantly conflate evidence with proof. It’s as if the only evidence they will accept is _proof_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/202 "2013-11-21T10:08:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think this is very well put. It’s that the ramifications of intelligence having a genetic role that may align with races are just too uncomfortable to contemplate. Some believe that the world should be egalitarian, and assume nature has the same bias. It doesn’t. Such a low bar, that no one has argued with… yes, it’s possible that the genetic explanation may have some merit. It just has not been demonstrated yet- not even close. > [@](#): > > And I still don’t see how people can accept how genetics can account for differences we can see on the outside, while being so certain that an organ on the inside—the brain—is off limits for any race-aligned differences. I don’t think anyone has made this argument. > [@](#): > > And yes, people constantly conflate evidence with proof. It’s as if the only evidence they will accept is _proof_. For such a claim, I’m demanding good evidence. In particular, I’m demanding actual genetic evidence. This shouldn’t be surprising- it’s a claim about genetics, and it’s a claim tied to the most brutal events in human history. It _should_ have high standards of evidence! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/203 "2013-11-21T10:13:39Z")
I’ve participated in a bit of off-topic digression. We’ve done the argument over the genetic explanation before, and we’re not making any new ground. I’ll reiterate my point in the OP- we have good reason for calling things racist, and we have good reasons for making “racist” such a strongly negative accusation. Just because someone thinks they actually have a good reason for a racist claim or belief does not mean it suddenly becomes not-racist… racist things are racist, regardless of how strongly one believes them. Pretty much everyone with racist beliefs throughout history thought they had good, solid evidence for believing it was so. But the beliefs and claims are racist, regardless of how one came to that belief. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/204 "2013-11-21T11:53:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And I still don’t see how people can accept how genetics can account for differences we can see on the outside, while being so certain that an organ on the inside—the brain—is off limits for any race-aligned differences. Are you claiming that external differences _are_ race-aligned? Name one. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/205 "2013-11-21T12:04:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Picking two groups who are often cited for superior intelligence, Jews and East Asians, one can find all sorts of information regarding the way that education and success are held up as family goals that are passed down from generation to generation. Other groups whose priorities in raising children place less stress on those particular goals, (having no similar cultural tradition), would seem to be less likely to pass on those traits to their own children, regardless of their current wealth. At some point in an undergrad history class I did a mini-research-project on schools in newly-liberated North Carolina. Union forces coming in were astonished at the number one demand of newly freed slaves: **schools**. Black kids thronged any school set up. So, for that matter, did poor white kids. The initial successes at providing integrated schooling fell apart, however, due to white racism: poor whites objected to the idea that white children (sometimes their own, more often not) would go to school alongside black children, and the opposition grew so violent that the schools were shuttered. (This was specific to one area–maybe Hanover County? It’s been some years since I read it). Anyway, what followed was a century plus of massively subpar schools for black children, coupled with terrorist attacks on black citizens who tried to organize for better conditions. You do enough of that, and maybe it’s just barely possible that a community loses trust and confidence in the institution that was so desperately desired at first. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/206 "2013-11-21T13:05:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll reiterate my point in the OP- we have good reason for calling things racist, and we have good reasons for making “racist” such a strongly negative accusation. I agree with that. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just because someone thinks they actually have a good reason for a **racist** claim or belief does not mean it suddenly becomes not-racist… racist things are racist, regardless of how strongly one believes them. (bolding mine) Here’s where the problem is. The bolded word should be _racial_, otherwise you’re begging the question in a big way. You’re trying to turn your argument into a tautology, as you do right after your ellipsis. Yes, racist things are necessarily racist. Duh. The problem is that only _some_ racial things are racist. You either don’t allow for some racial things to be non-racist at all, or you disagree with people on where that line is drawn. But it’s not helpful at all to offer an argument that all racist things are racist, and then try to make all racial things racist with a little verbal prestidigitation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/207 "2013-11-21T13:13:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Here’s where the problem is. The bolded word should be _racial_, otherwise you’re begging the question in a big way. You’re trying to turn your argument into a tautology, as you do right after your ellipsis. Yes, racist things are necessarily racist. Duh. The problem is that only _some_ racial things are racist. You either don’t allow for some racial things to be non-racist at all, or you disagree with people on where that line is drawn. But it’s not helpful at all to offer an argument that all racist things are racist, and then try to make all racial things racist with a little verbal prestidigitation. Racial claims that say or imply one race is inherently smarter/dumber or more/less moral than another are racist. I don’t think the word “racial” is particularly useful, though. It’s racist to claim that black people are inherently less intelligent, on average, regardless of why one believes it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/208 "2013-11-21T13:24:43Z")
The “Racial isn’t racist” claim is, I find, a useful shibboleth. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/209 "2013-11-21T13:33:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Racial claims that say or imply one race is inherently smarter/dumber or more/less moral than another are racist. I don’t think the word “racial” is particularly useful, though. It’s racist to claim that black people are inherently less intelligent, on average, regardless of why one believes it. Even if it’s true? Using the thought experiment that **MaxTheVool** offered up, IF a group of super advanced aliens came to earth and could show you proof that intelligence aligns very well with what we refer to as race, would that statement that one race is more intelligent than another still be racist? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/210 "2013-11-21T13:36:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The “Racial isn’t racist” claim is, I find, a useful shibboleth. Do you think the words are synonyms? That there is no difference between them? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/211 "2013-11-21T13:38:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The “Racial isn’t racist” claim is, I find, a useful shibboleth. Sort of an anti-shibboleth: if you can say the phrase with a straight face, the red flags go up. Seriously, the only time someone says that phrase is when they’re wanting to excuse racist claims. I have never heard someone say, for example, “Sickle Cell disease shows up more often among folks with Sub-Saharan ancestry than among folks with Nordic ancestry, but racial isn’t racist.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/212 "2013-11-21T13:52:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sort of an anti-shibboleth: if you can say the phrase with a straight face, the red flags go up. > > Seriously, the only time someone says that phrase is when they’re wanting to excuse racist claims. I have never heard someone say, for example, “Sickle Cell disease shows up more often among folks with Sub-Saharan ancestry than among folks with Nordic ancestry, but racial isn’t racist.” OH, please. The only time it comes up is when the charge of racism is leveled by the all-races-are-equal-in-every-way kumbaya crowd. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/213 "2013-11-21T14:06:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you think the words are synonyms? That there is no difference between them? In _this_ context, no, there isn’t. Quite simply, it’s racist to group people into races\* , in-and-of-itself. If it’s racial, it’s racist. - as opposed to ethnicities, valid biological populations or specific genetic groupings. Which races aren’t. ETA: There, I answered your question. Care to [answer mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16866209&postcount=204)? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/214 "2013-11-21T14:19:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Even if it’s true? Using the thought experiment that **MaxTheVool** offered up, IF a group of super advanced aliens came to earth and could show you proof that intelligence aligns very well with what we refer to as race, would that statement that one race is more intelligent than another still be racist? The bar you seem to set, that it’s not racist to believe “blacks are dumber” as long as one thinks that one has good evidence for it, is so high, that many _slave-owners_ (and Nazis) wouldn’t meet it. Most people with racist beliefs are pretty damn sure that they have good evidence for it… but their beliefs are still racist. It doesn’t matter why one makes a racist claim- _even if you think it’s true_. It’s racist whether one thinks it’s true or not… _and of course they think it’s true!_ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/215 "2013-11-21T14:23:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > OH, please. The only time it comes up is when the charge of racism is leveled by the all-races-are-equal-in-every-way kumbaya crowd. No one has made this claim… and I thought **CP** was the King of the Hay People; are you now his Prince? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/216 "2013-11-21T20:54:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > In _this_ context, no, there isn’t. Quite simply, it’s racist to group people into races\* , in-and-of-itself. If it’s racial, it’s racist. > > - as opposed to ethnicities, valid biological populations or specific genetic groupings. Which races aren’t. > > ETA: There, I answered your question. Care to [answer mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16866209&postcount=204)? I thought I answered this earlier. Maybe it wasn’t to you. Anyway: hair texture, melanin content of skin, eye shape… That is to say, there is a very strong correlation between kinky hair and Blacks. Eye almond eye shape (epicanthic fold) and Asians. But this discussion is really just a waste of time, isn’t it? I mean, if you’re of the mind that races don’t exist, how can you even discuss this except to say that"races do not exist"? And if an acknowledgement of races is all one needs to qualify as a racist, Dude, watch out, because there are racists all around you wherever you are. But you are wrong. This thing we call race is really of no mystery except to the deniers. It’s not as neat, I’d agree, as talking about tightly defined populations, but it is a useful shorthand. Otherwise 95% of what American group voted for Barack Obama? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/217 "2013-11-21T20:56:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one has made this claim… and I thought **CP** was the King of the Hay People; are you now his Prince? If one cannot make statements about the differences in races, it follows that they think that there are no differences that align with race. I do appreciate your King of Hay People, though. Nice. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/218 "2013-11-21T21:04:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I thought I answered this earlier. Maybe it wasn’t to you. Anyway: hair texture, melanin content of skin, eye shape… > > That is to say, there is a very strong correlation between kinky hair and Blacks. Khoi-san, Melanesians, Australian natives, Negritos… > [@](#): > > Eye almond eye shape (epicanthic fold) and Asians. Khoisan, Scandinavians… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/219 "2013-11-21T21:08:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If one cannot make statements about the differences in races, it follows that they think that there are no differences that align with race. I haven’t said “one cannot make statements about the differences in races” (and we’ll skip the race vs ethnicity vs population group vs etc discussion). I’ve said that claiming one race/ethnicity/group/etc is inherently smarter/dumber and/or more/less moral (or aggressive/violent/criminal etc) than another is a racist claim. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334/220 "2013-11-21T21:17:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If one cannot make statements about the differences in races, it follows that they think that there are no differences that align with race. Saying there are no races is not _remotely_ the same as saying all races are equal. That’s just complete mischaracterisation of the argument presented. Classic strawmanning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-racism/673334.md?page=12)