# What is Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 24, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087 "2011-05-24T23:22:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/21 "2011-05-25T01:56:31Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > But they have their own money and their own parliament and they are constantly seeking more independence. Scotland and England do have the same Head of State - but I forget what she’s called. > > I don’t see a trend toward less independence for Scotland - only more. We arrogantly assume that because something has been some way for 50 or 100 years it’s ridiculous to think that things will ever change. England and Scotland and Wales go way, way back… like way back to before you were even born. I’m not entirely sure what’s with the tone of your post, I never posited anything about the future of Scotland in relation to the United Kingdom, and it’s blatantly insulting to suggest that you are elucidating something to me by telling me that Scotland and Wales existence predates my own. As for what I actually said, other States do not treat with Scotland as a sovereign state. That is what “external legitimacy” means, that other sovereign entities recognize your sovereignty. If the United States felt Scotland was a true sovereign State we would have a Scottish embassy, an ambassador to Scotland, they would have an embassy in the United States and an ambassador to the United States. I posit that Scotland even lacks internal legitimacy (meaning its own people do not view it as a sovereign State.) If Scots actually felt they were living in an independent State I’d wonder why they are electing MPs to the _British_ Parliament in London. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/22 "2011-05-25T08:13:53Z")
1. the british isles 2. the united kingdom and ireland 3. northern ireland, scotland, wales, england, (and some small islands i keep forgetting --isle of wight?) ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/23 "2011-05-25T08:42:14Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > 1. the british isles > 2. the united kingdom and ireland > 3. northern ireland, scotland, wales, england, (and some small islands i keep forgetting --isle of wight?) No, not the Isle Of Wight; you’re probably thinking of the the Isle Of Man. From Wiki: > [@](#): > > The Isle of Man (play /ˈmæn/; Manx: Ellan Vannin,[2] pronounced [ˈɛlʲən ˈvanɪn]), otherwise known simply as Mann (Manx: Mannin, IPA: [ˈmanɪn]), is a self-governing British Crown Dependency, located in the Irish Sea between the islands of Great Britain and Ireland, within the British Isles. The head of state is Queen Elizabeth II, who holds the title of Lord of Mann. The Lord of Mann is represented by a Lieutenant Governor. The island is not part of the United Kingdom, but its foreign relations and defence are the responsibility of the UK Government. Although it does not usually interfere in the island’s domestic matters, its “good government” is ultimately the responsibility of the Crown (i.e., in practice, the Government of the United Kingdom). I don’t believe there are any other islands that claim any form of independence. Unless you include [the Principality of Sealand](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand). ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/24 "2011-05-25T10:26:04Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m not entirely sure what’s with the tone of your post, I never posited anything about the future of Scotland in relation to the United Kingdom, and it’s blatantly insulting to suggest that you are elucidating something to me by telling me that Scotland and Wales existence predates my own. > > As for what I actually said, other States do not treat with Scotland as a sovereign state. That is what “external legitimacy” means, that other sovereign entities recognize your sovereignty. If the United States felt Scotland was a true sovereign State we would have a Scottish embassy, an ambassador to Scotland, they would have an embassy in the United States and an ambassador to the United States. > > I posit that Scotland even lacks internal legitimacy (meaning its own people do not view it as a sovereign State.) If Scots actually felt they were living in an independent State I’d wonder why they are electing MPs to the _British_ Parliament in London. Scotland is obviously it’s own people with it’s own language and culture and history. For the time being they’ll continue to try to keep getting that English money and power and influence but exercise as much independence as they can. They’re like the Puerto Rico of Great Britain. Trying to establish the legitimacy of Scotland by examining whether/how the United States recognizes it as a State or not is kindof silly. Scotland was around way before the United States of American and before any conventional view of “State” existed. It’s a Nation. Similar in many ways to an American Indian tribe. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/25 "2011-05-25T10:38:01Z")
it was a kingdom that united with the english crown, but their national identity is preserved. i think that should be enough. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/26 "2011-05-25T11:06:51Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Do languages other than English also have this lack of preciseness? Can we blame Latin for this confusion? I still don’t see how confusion can be a good thing… Linguist(ician) checking in here. Yes, all languages, even the so-called auxiliary languages, have this. [Here’s a good explanation of _ambiguity_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguity). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/27 "2011-05-25T11:12:22Z")
The UK isn’t even the only ‘country made of countries.’ [The UAE, for example,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates) is a sovereign state made of several different countries. > [@notfrommensa](#): > > That video is good explanation. Sort of. > > Do you go through Customs when traveling from Wales to England to Scotland to Northern Ireland? Does an Englander need a passport to go to Wales? or Scotland? You don’t go through customs to get to France, either, and you don’t, strictly speaking, need a passport, but you do need ID, and only a British passport is acceptable if you’re British - French people can use ID cards. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/28 "2011-05-25T11:13:02Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > That video is good explanation. Sort of. > > Do you go through Customs when traveling from Wales to England to Scotland to Northern Ireland? Does an Englander need a passport to go to Wales? or Scotland? No, but then again neither does a Frenchman go through customs, or need a passport, to travel to Germany or Belgium, say. Edit: simulpost… but it’s worth pointing out that the UK isn’t part of the [Schengen area](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area), so there are (in theory at least) border controls between the UK and France. Once you’re in France, though, you can go all the way to Poland (or even the Baltic states) with no further border controls. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/29 "2011-05-25T11:55:58Z")
Here’s a [diagram](http://qntm.org/uk) which shows what several people have been saying, but I’ll post it anyway because I like it! And it uses the term, ‘constituent countries’ to describe the parts of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/30 "2011-05-25T12:10:32Z")
> [@Meurglys](#): > > Here’s a [diagram](http://qntm.org/uk) which shows what several people have been saying, but I’ll post it anyway because I like it! > And it uses the term, ‘constituent countries’ to describe the parts of the UK. It should be drawn on a used cocktail napkin and scanned. That would make it look more appropriate. Is “Britain” the island and “Great Britain” the Island + the little islands off the island, Wight, Mann, Guernsey, etc.? Did I read that somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/31 "2011-05-25T12:36:04Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > They’re like the Puerto Rico of Great Britain. No, we’re not. Not unless England is too, and you wouldn’t describe England thusly, would you? Hawaii, or Alaska, or - as stated above - Texas are much better analogies for Scotland’s political position in the UK (though they’re not countries and never were, so not a perfect analogy). ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/32 "2011-05-25T12:52:40Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > No, we’re not. Not unless England is too, and you wouldn’t describe England thusly, would you? Hawaii, or Alaska, or - as stated above - Texas are much better analogies for Scotland’s political position in the UK (though they’re not countries and never were, so not a perfect analogy). They are good analogues, but US states are arguably more autonomous than the UK’s countries. Also, the UK is moving towards a system of asymmetrical federalism, while US states are supposed to all have the same powers. And what do you mean, they aren’t countries and never were? They may not have the status of countries (they’re “states” instead), but that’s merely a choice of nomenclature. (Canada’s federal subjects are called “provinces”, which is a holdover from colonial times, but otherwise means the same thing.) And Texas, of course, was in fact for a time an independent country. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/33 "2011-05-25T13:02:50Z")
Scotland is a perfect holiday destination. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/34 "2011-05-25T13:13:07Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > No, we’re not. Not unless England is too, and you wouldn’t describe England thusly, would you? Hawaii, or Alaska, or - as stated above - Texas are much better analogies for Scotland’s political position in the UK (though they’re not countries and never were, so not a perfect analogy). Both Hawaii and Texas were independent countries before they were annexed to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/35 "2011-05-25T13:24:32Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > Is “Britain” the island and “Great Britain” the Island + the little islands off the island, Wight, Mann, Guernsey, etc.? > > Did I read that somewhere? No, strictly speaking “Great Britain” is a geographical term referring to the large island. The various terms are often used informally, though, so that the political state whose full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is often referred to as “Britain” or “Great Britain”. Or “England”, by foreigners ;). [edit] I should add that some people refer to the UK as “England” not out of ignorance, but pointedly, in reference to the historically dominant role of England within the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/36 "2011-05-25T13:39:37Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > _nation_ implies that sovereignty is recognized by other nations. I agree with **Ximenean** that “nation” traditionally refers to a group of people with a shared identity. A “nation-state” is a state that is made up of a group of people with a shared identity. > [@samjones](#): > > Is “Britain” the island and “Great Britain” the Island + the little islands off the island, Wight, Mann, Guernsey, etc.? Geographically speaking “Great Britain” and “Britain” refer to the same thing. However, colloquially speaking, “Britain” is often used to mean the United Kingdom as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/37 "2011-05-25T13:47:53Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > Do you go through Customs when traveling from Wales to England to Scotland to Northern Ireland? Does an Englander need a passport to go to Wales? or Scotland? Requiring a passport or other document for travel is not a reliable indicator of when you’ve crossed an internal or external border. Some external borders (such as the countries of the Schengen Zone in Europe) you can cross without a passport. Some other countries (such as Russia and Denmark) require a passport for some or all travel entirely within their borders. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/38 "2011-05-25T14:41:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Both Hawaii and Texas were independent countries before they were annexed to the United States. Beg pardon. Didn’t do my homework there. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/39 "2011-05-25T15:25:33Z")
But only the Kingdom of Hawaii was a nation-state that had any reasonable history as an independent country with its own ethnic identity. The Republic of Texas thing was just a momentary blip in an ongoing struggle between Americans and Mexicans. ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087/40 "2011-05-25T15:31:12Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > Scotland is obviously it’s own people with it’s own language and culture and history. For the time being they’ll continue to try to keep getting that English money and power and influence but exercise as much independence as they can. Yes, it’s dreadfully rude of Scots to ask for some of that money back that England took from the sale of [Scottish North Sea oi](http://www.snp.org/node/13902)l. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-scotland/583087.md?page=3)