# What is Sexism? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 16, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853 "2013-04-16T18:06:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/101 "2013-04-17T19:08:38Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > So men can’t experience sexism, and if they did it would really be sexism against women? > > Nice way to define your way through a discussion. > > Also, your post denies racism referring to any other race other than black people. I’m sure everyone who isn’t black or white feels nice and excluded. > > If the moderation policy on this website changes to accommodate your non-standard definition of sexism, I really have no interest in continuing here. I have seen that sort of rot on several other communities, and the end result is a big batch of oppression olympics and a stifling of any opinions that might possibly imply that women, any non-white person, or anyone of a GSM might not be a saint or that they are not infallible beings of pure light. Okay. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/102 "2013-04-17T19:08:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If I remember the OP correctly, all it asked for was a working definition of “sexism” for the purpose of moderation of this message board. It didn’t specify any specific type. Fine, then I’m done here. Like I said, I must have been mistaken when I felt like the discussion had moved beyond the parameters of your OP and thought I could contribute more to the discussion. Clearly that wasn’t desired. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/103 "2013-04-17T19:13:58Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Fine, then I’m done here. Like I said, I must have been mistaken when I felt like the discussion had moved beyond the parameters of your OP and thought I could contribute more to the discussion. Clearly that wasn’t desired. But you also revised the position you agreed to earlier when you later said: > [@](#): > > Since that culture does not exist here against men, I would say men on this board are not suffering from sexism in any form. In that post you were definitely talking about sexism as it pertains to this board, and not any larger context. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/104 "2013-04-17T19:17:25Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > I believe it’s possible for there to be statements made against men as a group which are offensive and designed to denigrate them. I do not believe it occurs to the extent that it does against women in the sense that we need to discuss a “sexist against men” culture on this board. Since that culture does not exist here against men, I would say men on this board are not suffering from sexism in any form. I think I see what you’re saying–that because sexism requires a fundamental power imbalance between the genders, sexism against men doesn’t occur. Is this a fair summary? If so, that’s fine. But I think it also means that we need to be talking about gender discrimination more. If men, by definition, cannot suffer from sexism, then men can certainly suffer from gender discrimination. Granted that doesn’t happen nearly as often with men as with women. But suffering doesn’t happen in the aggregate; it happens in the specific. And while we should absolutely recognize the “death of a thousand cuts” phenomenon, while we’re at it it’s worth recognizing specific incidents of discrimination against men and condemning them. For example, in the whole brouhaha over the last several days, there were several people who faced personal insults along the lines of, “you’ve clearly never had sex and you never will.” These people were all of the same gender. And they were facing a gendered insult. And it wasn’t based on comparing them to women–there was no female stereotype in play here. While such insults may be permissible by the Pit’s rules, I’d suggest that they constitute gender discrimination. They’re nowhere near as bad as pervasive anti-women insults, sure. But can we simultaneously acknowledge that and acknowledge that they’re kind of obnoxious and something to avoid in the future? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/105 "2013-04-17T19:17:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But you also revised the position you agreed to earlier when you later said:In that post you were definitely talking about sexism as it pertains to this board, and not any larger context. Because you _specifically asked me in reference to this board_. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/106 "2013-04-17T19:18:50Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > So men can’t experience sexism, and if they did it would really be sexism against women? > > Nice way to define your way through a discussion. Men should just accept that any male bashing is good humor: “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them”. But if a man says anything offensive to women he should be penalized. This is the **male privilege** in society and so it must be here. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/107 "2013-04-17T19:19:00Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > In post #22, you were referring to its application in a moderating decision. I am discussing the more expansive impacts of sexism at the moment. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > So for the purpose of moderation on this board, it is possible for there to be sexism against men? > [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > I believe it’s possible for there to be statements made against men as a group which are offensive and designed to denigrate them. I do not believe it occurs to the extent that it does against women in the sense that we need to discuss a “sexist against men” culture on this board. Since that culture does not exist here against men, I would say men on this board are not suffering from sexism in any form. This was the series of quotes. Now you seem to be asking me, well you were talking about culture in general, now you’re referring to the board, which is it? It’s because I was responding to your specific question to bring it back to the board application! ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/108 "2013-04-17T19:20:02Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Men should just accept that any male bashing is good humor: “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them”. But if a man says anything offensive to women he should be penalized. This is the **male privilege** in society and so it must be here. Bullshit. You have men arguing that women bashing is “teasing” and that it would be the height of censorship to stop them. Male bashing is not acceptable either, the difference is, it doesn’t happen with the frequency as it is directed against women. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/109 "2013-04-17T19:20:52Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > I Find your examples of male discrimination a wonderful example of missing the point. Boys aren’t being discriminated against when they are told not to be like a girl. It is the girls who are being discriminated against. What is the message? It is" to be like a girl is shameful" I taught a course in prejudice and one boy said " to be man you have to be aa unlike a female as you can",when I do this with adults I ask how many women were tomboys ,hands shoot up with pride. How many were mamas boys?none ! So, I put in one example of feminization, which I said is wrong, and that’s the only one you latch onto to make the case that that is really anti-female sexism. OK, leave that one out. Address the fact that men are demeaned in ways that are not anti-female when they don’t live up to cultural male stereotypes. A weak male gets bullied. There. No feminization or anti-female sexism there. But, it is a case of a man being persecuted for being a man not conforming to male stereotypes. Like when a woman berates her husband for being a ‘little man.’ That isn’t anti-male sexism? > [@](#): > > Another point you make is men are discriminated because they are gay or disabled. Those are not male issues. I’m glad we agree because I pointedly said they weren’t, but analogous experiences of being discriminated. If a man can feel the pain and shame and harmful consequences because of the bigotry that comes from belonging to a class ‘X’, then why can’t he sympathize with women who feel the pain and shame and harmful consequences because of the bigotry that come from belonging to class ‘Women.’? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/110 "2013-04-17T19:22:27Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Because you _specifically asked me in reference to this board_. And your two statements, _in reference to this board_ do not match up. The first is about “people of the opposite sex”, and in the second you revise it to say that sexism _on this message board_ can only be directed at women. Those are not two different contexts being referred to. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/111 "2013-04-17T19:24:51Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Male bashing is not acceptable either I did not get this from your earlier posts (and I fully admit the error might be mine and I’m too lazy to go check)–but I think other folks aren’t getting this either. So I’m quoting it here to make it clear: if you’re arguing that LFF is okay with male bashing, you’re wrong, and the conversation probably shouldn’t continue predicated on such an assumption. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/112 "2013-04-17T19:27:24Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > [QUOTE=randomface] > > So men can’t experience sexism, and if they did it would really be sexism against women? > > Nice way to define your way through a discussion. I specifically said men can and do experience gender discrimination. They are also the victims of bigotry against men. Do they suffer from the institution of sexism? No. [/quote] I usually refer to that as the institution of _patriarchy_. Sexism = gender discrimination; patriarchy = specific historical oppression of women taking specific form and having specific manifestations in our culture. Depends on sexism to perpetuate itself. Not compatible with equality. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/113 "2013-04-17T19:27:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think I see what you’re saying–that because sexism requires a fundamental power imbalance between the genders, sexism against men doesn’t occur. Is this a fair summary? > > If so, that’s fine. But I think it also means that we need to be talking about gender discrimination more. If men, by definition, cannot suffer from sexism, then men can certainly suffer from gender discrimination. > > Granted that doesn’t happen nearly as often with men as with women. But suffering doesn’t happen in the aggregate; it happens in the specific. And while we should absolutely recognize the “death of a thousand cuts” phenomenon, while we’re at it it’s worth recognizing specific incidents of discrimination against men and condemning them. > > For example, in the whole brouhaha over the last several days, there were several people who faced personal insults along the lines of, “you’ve clearly never had sex and you never will.” These people were all of the same gender. And they were facing a gendered insult. And it wasn’t based on comparing them to women–there was no female stereotype in play here. While such insults may be permissible by the Pit’s rules, I’d suggest that they constitute gender discrimination. > > They’re nowhere near as bad as pervasive anti-women insults, sure. But can we simultaneously acknowledge that and acknowledge that they’re kind of obnoxious and something to avoid in the future? For what it’s worth, I completely agree with this. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/114 "2013-04-17T19:27:45Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Not all generalizations are destructive, wrong, or for that matter dispensible. Our thinking depends on pattern-recognition, after all. But I don’t see anything good to be gained by having an environment that supports a lot of stereotypical generalizations about how men and women ARE. More carefully crafted ones about observed BEHAVIOR, especially if they don’t get anchored in an assertion about built-in differences and a blindness to surrounding context, are a different matter. I don’t particularly disagree with any of that. And I can see you’re talking about a convention on responding to arguments rather than a rule, so I won’t quibble over this. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/115 "2013-04-17T19:28:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And your two statements, _in reference to this board_ do not match up. The first is about “people of the opposite sex”, and in the second you revise it to say that sexism _on this message board_ can only be directed at women. Those are not two different contexts being referred to. I said I didn’t believe they _were_ experiencing sexism on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/116 "2013-04-17T19:29:33Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > I said I didn’t believe they _were_ experiencing sexism on this board. Do you believe that it is _possible_ for men to experience sexism on this board? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/117 "2013-04-17T19:33:26Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I usually refer to that as the institution of _patriarchy_. Sexism = gender discrimination; patriarchy = specific historical oppression of women taking specific form and having specific manifestations in our culture. Depends on sexism to perpetuate itself. Not compatible with equality. I don’t think that the issue of “patriarchy” and sexism are unrelated, it’s just a method of describing the historical mentality that allows sexism to continue to exist. Gender discrimination is a thing. Sexism is a thing. Why is it that all people suffering from gender discrimination want to be described as being victims of sexism? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I did not get this from your earlier posts (and I fully admit the error might be mine and I’m too lazy to go check)–but I think other folks aren’t getting this either. So I’m quoting it here to make it clear: if you’re arguing that LFF is okay with male bashing, you’re wrong, and the conversation probably shouldn’t continue predicated on such an assumption. Thank you. There is a contingent of posters who wade into conversations like this to say inflammatory things such as “but all male bashing is hunkey dorey and if we can just kill all men that would be great!”, trying to make it seem like there is some deeply ingrained hypocrisy evident in the discussion. Like we are simultaneously decrying sexist commentary against women WHILE furthering and encouraging discriminatory commentary against men. This is simply not true, and arguing that men are not victims of sexism _while arguing that they can be victims of gender discrimination_ does not equate to “open season on insulting men”. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/118 "2013-04-17T19:36:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you believe that it is _possible_ for men to experience sexism on this board? Unless the entire culture of the western world shifted to the point at which men were considered the lesser of the two genders, and institutionally discriminated against, no. If that changed and men were suddenly viewed as dumber, weaker, and whose input on society were less valuable, they could be the victims of sexism. Just like any man anywhere could be. But they can now, and are currently, victims of gendered insults and discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/119 "2013-04-17T19:41:07Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Thank you. There is a contingent of posters who wade into conversations like this to say inflammatory things such as “but all male bashing is hunkey dorey and if we can just kill all men that would be great!”, trying to make it seem like there is some deeply ingrained hypocrisy evident in the discussion. Like we are simultaneously decrying sexist commentary against women WHILE furthering and encouraging discriminatory commentary against men. This is simply not true, and arguing that men are not victims of sexism _while arguing that they can be victims of gender discrimination_ does not equate to “open season on insulting men”. Thank you very much – at least here there is some balance. Even though I spend too much time online I do visit grocery and other stores. And the greeting card section always reminds me of how privileged I am. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853/120 "2013-04-17T19:42:34Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Unless the entire culture of the western world shifted to the point at which men were considered the lesser of the two genders, and institutionally discriminated against, no. If that changed and men were suddenly viewed as dumber, weaker, and whose input on society were less valuable, they could be the victims of sexism. Just like any man anywhere could be. > > But they can now, and are currently, victims of gendered insults and discrimination. So “sexism”, when it comes to the moderation of this board, actually means “sexism against women”, according to your definition? Note that I’m not saying that you are wrong-I’m just asking for as clear a definition as possible from people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853.md?page=7)