# What is something that is "business as usual" now that will be seen as horrible in the future? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836 "2013-11-01T13:21:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/61 "2013-11-03T22:05:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I used to think that fatalism was the only option, but after much consideration I can now see an alternative. It is worth remembering that the great majority of philosophers and scientists working with human behaviour do not accept the myth of free will, either being Libertarians or at least compatibility- believing that although all is determined, we are still justified in treating people as if they did. > > The philosophical alternative to fatalism is a form of statistical randomness in outcome- where although there is no locus of responsibility, outcomes are not totally determined- a form of indeterminism rather than Determinism. It’s interesting that you persist in talking as though you had the option of considering alternatives, and being justified in treating people one way or another; in your world-view it seems to me that neither you nor I nor anyone else is actually capable of exercising choice over what we do or say. There seems to be an inherent contradiction in your position: people have no choice as to whether to do wrong, but other people do have a choice in how to treat them. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/62 "2013-11-03T22:45:32Z")
Aggressing against the person and property of individuals through government force. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/63 "2013-11-04T01:18:14Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Aggressing against the person and property of individuals through government force. But other types of force will be ok? ---
**Author:** ![DonnieBarko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@DonnieBarko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonnieBarko)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/64 "2013-11-04T01:45:37Z")
Here’s one that I haven’t seen mentioned yet. Our uninhibited use of fresh water. “Yes, sonny. Back in my day, we used to have these large patches of grass in front of our homes called “lawns,” and we used to have these machines that would spring up, sometimes twice a day, and shoot gallons of fresh, drinkable water onto the grass to nourish it. And the water would cost less than a penny per gallon!” “But grandpa, what was the purpose of that? Was the grass something you would grow to eat?” “It looked pretty.” That, of course, is just one example. Indeed, I would expect the practice of taking long showers, which is something most of us do on a daily basis, will be viewed as quite the careless indulgence. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/65 "2013-11-04T03:18:57Z")
Actually, I think I want to back up and say capitalism. The idea that it’s normal and proper and correct to divide society into the strong and the weak, the served and the servers, those who live off the toil of others and those who toil. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/66 "2013-11-04T03:44:37Z")
Schooling. I have this (completely baseless) suspicion that people will realize that basically locking your children up in a formal institution, 5 days a week, 6-7 hours a day for 12 years was un-necessary. Particularly for kids aged 5-11 or 5-12. It’s basically child-minding with some forced socializing thrown in. I think the formal education system will be much less intrusive up until Teenage years, and then much more specialized from then on. How - I don’t know. But what we have now doesn’t feel right to me. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/67 "2013-11-04T04:04:12Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > But other types of force will be ok? Other types of force aren’t accepted by a large portion of society right now. Robbery is outlawed while taxation accepted. Murder is abhorred but the government does it with impunity. Human beings will develop a clear-eyed sense of morality where government force is exposed as immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/68 "2013-11-04T04:06:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Other types of force aren’t accepted by a large portion of society right now. Robbery is outlawed while taxation accepted. Murder is abhorred but the government does it with impunity. Human beings will develop a clear-eyed sense of morality where government force is exposed as immoral. Taxation isn’t theft. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/69 "2013-11-04T04:12:41Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Actually, I think I want to back up and say capitalism. The idea that it’s normal and proper and correct to divide society into the strong and the weak, the served and the servers, those who live off the toil of others and those who toil. Your view of capitalism is a peculiar one. Society wasn’t divided into strong and weak by some conscious actor. It is merely individuals acting on their own initiative that creates such a stratification. Not to mention, your class theory is a bit rickety. You place the “strong” and “weak” into separate classes and imply that “those who toil” are the “weak” and those “who live off the toil” are the “strong”. This seems a bit hackneyed as in today’s version of capitalism, the people who do not “toil” are said to be too weak to work. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/70 "2013-11-04T04:17:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Taxation isn’t theft. What is it? When I made the claim that taxation is no different than extortion, social democrats were only able to tag on modifiers such as taxation is “legal” extortion or taxation is “necessary” extortion. I doubt you will fair better. Taxation is extortion no matter how legal and necessary you pretend it is. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/71 "2013-11-04T04:28:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Your view of capitalism is a peculiar one. Society wasn’t divided into strong and weak by some conscious actor. It is merely individuals acting on their own initiative that creates such a stratification. Not to mention, your class theory is a bit rickety. You place the “strong” and “weak” into separate classes and imply that “those who toil” are the “weak” and those “who live off the toil” are the “strong”. This seems a bit hackneyed as in today’s version of capitalism, the people who do not “toil” are said to be too weak to work. Yes, in our current incarnation of capitalism, both the strong and the weak toil, but only about 1 percent of us are collecting all the wealth generated by that toil. A ringing endorsement of the virtues of capitalism! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/72 "2013-11-04T04:32:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What is it? > > When I made the claim that taxation is no different than extortion. Respectfully, you were wrong. It is different. > [@](#): > > Taxation is extortion no matter how legal and necessary you pretend it is. No it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/73 "2013-11-04T05:15:55Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Yes, in our current incarnation of capitalism, both the strong and the weak toil, but only about 1 percent of us are collecting all the wealth generated by that toil. A ringing endorsement of the virtues of capitalism! I would argue that’s because of government intervention, but we are way off topic already. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/74 "2013-11-04T05:18:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully, you were wrong. It is different. > > No it’s not. Since you avoided my question I don’t see a reason to continue with you. The government points a gun at you and tells you to pay up or go to prison. Robbery extortion theft take your pick it’s immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/75 "2013-11-04T10:56:09Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > You talk well in fantasyland, but how exactly do we alter our criminal justice system to no longer hold an individual responsible for a crime committed against another human being? > > Is it the fault of the victim in your scenario, or is he simply acting out his fate by taking the burglar’s knife in his neck? This is not fantasy land. Most philosophers believe that all human behaviour is determined by previous states of the universe; there are very few Libertarians who believe in universal free will! Many such philosophers argue currently that it is socially acceptable to act ‘as if’ people had free will even though they do not. This is as a matter of public policy to limit law breaking. The question is- is it moral to blame someone for something over which they had no real control. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/76 "2013-11-04T10:58:27Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > It’s interesting that you persist in talking as though you had the option of considering alternatives, and being justified in treating people one way or another; in your world-view it seems to me that neither you nor I nor anyone else is actually capable of exercising choice over what we do or say. There seems to be an inherent contradiction in your position: people have no choice as to whether to do wrong, but other people do have a choice in how to treat them. :dubious: Maybe you need to read and think a little deeper. I am certainly aware of certain choices being made about how I behave- the question is "How could (whatever it is that is me) change the state of the universe beyond the sum of physical forces acting on me? Where is the locus of responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![Gullible\_s\_Travels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@Gullible\_s\_Travels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gullible_s_Travels)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/77 "2013-11-04T12:39:54Z")
> [@DonnieBarko](#): > > Here’s one that I haven’t seen mentioned yet. > > Our uninhibited use of fresh water. > > “Yes, sonny. Back in my day, we used to have these large patches of grass in front of our homes called “lawns,” and we used to have these machines that would spring up, sometimes twice a day, and shoot gallons of fresh, drinkable water onto the grass to nourish it. And the water would cost less than a penny per gallon!” > > “But grandpa, what was the purpose of that? Was the grass something you would grow to eat?” > > “It looked pretty.” > > That, of course, is just one example. Indeed, I would expect the practice of taking long showers, which is something most of us do on a daily basis, will be viewed as quite the careless indulgence. I think you’re right about this. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/78 "2013-11-04T13:14:08Z")
> [@Oedipus](#): > > Just joking around with friends and playing football or something, I can see you calling each other “tard” or “retard” just to fuck around with each other. Not putting them down or anything, just as a word…Not saying I would call an actual mentally disabled person a retard, but it’s just one of those words. I think the same goes for “fag” right now, but I’m mostly not in professional setting (to say the least). During a football game, I couldn’t just yell “You nigger! How could you drop the ball!!!”, but I could easily say “You retard! How could you drop the ball!!!” There’s a name for this: hypocrisy. You’re very comfortable using these terms as long as you assume there’s nobody near you who may get offended. But you know better than to use these terms to people’s faces. Here’s a clue: when you use a derogatory term in general, but not to the person’s face, you shouldn’t be using it at all. If you know better than to use the term “fag” when I’m around, it’s just as wrong to use it against my back. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/79 "2013-11-04T13:57:57Z")
I think they’ll wonder why we bothered with nonpornographic websites. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836/80 "2013-11-04T15:00:34Z")
All speculations guaranteed, or your money back! > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Those are somewhat odd speculations, since attempts have been made to wipe out both, and those attempts are what’s now viewed as horrible. The attempt to have the government fully or partially determine who can have children was eugenics, not something looked back on with fondness these days. I was thinking more of population control than eugenics, some attempt at a stable population with reproducing permitted only on a replacement basis. In such a society, the idea that any male/female pair could produce one to a dozen mouths to feed with impunity would seem horrible. > [@ITR champion](#): > > People such as Robespierre, Lenin, and Mao have attempted to stamp out religion as we know it. (Unsuccessfully, of course.) That’s not regarded as a great idea these days either. A post-religious society would probably look back on religion as being somewhere between “quant superstition” and “barbaric crime”. A post-religious society can only come about voluntarily, at least until we have thought-detectors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-something-that-is-business-as-usual-now-that-will-be-seen-as-horrible-in-the-future/672836.md?page=5)