# What IS that accent?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 11, 2007, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384 "2007-10-11T20:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/41 "2007-10-12T22:45:20Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] Not that I doubt you, as such, but do you have a cite that “Standard American” is used to describe the Mid-Atlantic accent rather than the General American accent? [/QUOTE] No, only the consensus of this thread that seems to have settled on that, which I politely disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/42 "2007-10-12T22:58:26Z")
(Just to clarify, in case necessary, the thing I was doubting was **Max the Immortal** ’s claim that “Standard American” refers to so-called Mid-Atlantic English, rather than referring to what is known as General American. I think everyone understood this, but just making sure.) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/43 "2007-10-12T23:00:13Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] (Just to clarify, in case necessary, the thing I was doubting was **Max the Immortal** ’s claim that “Standard American” refers to so-called Mid-Atlantic English, rather than referring to what is known as General American. I _think_ everyone understood this, but I’m not sure.) [/QUOTE] Right. I have the same doubt. But since your question was in reply to my post, I thought you were doubting my doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/44 "2007-10-12T23:01:20Z")
Ah. I suspected that may have led to misinterpretation. Well, then, it was good of me to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/45 "2007-10-12T23:06:55Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] Ah. I suspected that may have led to misinterpretation. Well, then, it was good of me to clarify. [/QUOTE] Right you are. Let’s keep this sparkling back and forth going indefinitely, shall we? I’m typing in MidAtlantic, old sock. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/46 "2007-10-12T23:08:12Z")
Jolly well, old bean. I’m game. Care for a cup of tea? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/47 "2007-10-12T23:13:41Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Let’s, please. The only other person I’ve met from Manchester sounded just like her, and as a linguistic major, I’d love to hear what “weird ‘Manchester’” means in this context. [/QUOTE] Well, I would first like to say that I don’t mean to criticise Jane Leeves’ performance in _Frasier_. I think she’s very good in it, and it is one my favourite TV shows. But her accent, the first time you watch the show as a Brit you’re thinking “where the hell is she supposed to be from”? She adopts this sort of stereotypical “ecky thump” northern accent that alamagates everything you’ve heard in bad British sitcoms. It sounds more Leeds than Manchester to me, but not a very convincing Leeds either. Manchester has a distinctive accent, nothing like Daphne’s. She could have tried a Lancashire accent (like another British actor Jane Horrocks, if you’ve heard her natural accent), because Manchester is historically part of Lancashire and you do hear the Lancashire accent there. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/48 "2007-10-12T23:15:43Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] Well, I would first like to say that I don’t mean to criticise Jane Leeves’ performance in _Frasier_. I think she’s very good in it, and it is one my favourite TV shows. But her accent, the first time you watch the show as a Brit you’re thinking “where the hell is she supposed to be from”? She adopts this sort of stereotypical “ecky thump” northern accent that alamagates everything you’ve heard in bad British sitcoms. It sounds more Leeds than Manchester to me, but not a very convincing Leeds either. Manchester has a distinctive accent, nothing like Daphne’s. She could have tried a Lancashire accent (like another British actor Jane Horrocks, if you’ve heard her natural accent), because Manchester is historically part of Lancashire and you do hear the Lancashire accent there. [/QUOTE] Interesting, thanks! > [@lissener](#): > > Right. I have the same doubt. Not to toot my own horn, here, but I think I’ve done a pretty convincing job of proving your “doubt” already. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/49 "2007-10-12T23:44:47Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Interesting, thanks! Not to toot my own horn, here, but I think I’ve done a pretty convincing job of proving your “doubt” already. [/QUOTE] Actually, to clarify; your cites support my contention, that the OP-referred accent is called Mid Atlantic, \*not \*Standard; that Standard refers to the “CNN” accent. This is what I’ve been saying, and this is what your cites back up. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/50 "2007-10-13T14:44:14Z")
I must concede that I cannot prove my assertions by SDMB standards. If you’re willing to take my word on it, bear in mind that David Smukler, author of Speaking North American Naturally and prolific [dialect coach](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0810716/), as well as his colleagues at [Canada’s National Voice Intensive](http://www.theatre.ubc.ca/vi/faculty.htm), all refer to the accent in question as Standard American. The comprehensive [Accents: A Manual for Actors](http://www.amazon.com/Accents-Manual-Actors-Robert-Blumenfeld/dp/0879102691) by Robert Blumenfeld refers to CNN English as General American, not Standard. The term Mid-Atlantic is not specific to the constructed theatre dialect. For example, [the Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language#North_America) on English-language dialects lists the [Tidewater accent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidewater_accent) as a mid-atlantic accent, and is quite different from the dialect we are discussing. Unless the rumors about Kelsey Grammer being a doper are true, I don’t think we’ll be able to find more specific information. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/51 "2007-10-13T15:02:51Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] Lloyd Grossman has lived between London and the Eastern US long enough that his accent has changed a fair bit. I can still hear a touch of the elongated Bostonian vowels, a hint of his time in Toronto, and London. In any case here is Lloyd: [Llloyd Grossman hosting Masterchef](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=towd9vZWDJg) [/QUOTE] I was hoping it would be a link to that video. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/52 "2007-10-13T19:55:27Z")
> [@Max the Immortal](#): > > If you’re willing to take my word on it, bear in mind that David Smukler, author of Speaking North American Naturally and prolific dialect coach, as well as his colleagues at Canada’s National Voice Intensive, all refer to the accent in question as Standard American. Dialect coaches hold no authority compared to linguists, who butter their bread by researching languages and dialects, and who have shown repeatedly that the rest of the civilized world reserves the name “Standard American” for the dialect that is actually Standard in America. > [@Max the Immortal](#): > > The comprehensive Accents: A Manual for Actors by Robert Blumenfeld refers to CNN English as General American, not Standard. General American is another accepted term for the same thing, yes. > [@Max the Immortal](#): > > The term Mid-Atlantic is not specific to the constructed theatre dialect. For example, the Wikipedia article on English-language dialects lists the Tidewater accent as a mid-atlantic accent, and is quite different from the dialect we are discussing. I’m not sure how that’s particularly relevant. I’m certainly willing to accept that within the theatre in-group, Standard American is the accepted name for the constructed stage dialect. But using that term to refer to that dialect can only lead to confusion in any other context or with any other group of people, the way I see it. Outside of the theatre context–where it _is_ the standard American dialect–the fact that Standard American English means CNN English (an excellent coinage, thank you) is as fundamental to linguistics as 2+2=4 is to calculus. Part of me finds it irritating that theatre folks are using such a confusing term, but (1) another part of me must admit that conflicts like these are part of what makes English such a colorful and expressive language and (2) a lot of the theatre people probably hate that I use the British spelling, and they can sod off. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/53 "2007-10-13T20:05:36Z")
My first paragraph in that last post was a little dickish. Sorry, I’m a little snippy after being [disappointed by my navel](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9070716) this morning. 😉 Just read my last paragraph, then. That’s the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Soundsrgood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@Soundsrgood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soundsrgood)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/54 "2026-05-13T05:19:01Z")
Almost 20 years later, I really enjoyed reading everyone’s posts here and have a lot to further research 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/55 "2026-05-13T05:27:19Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > No, only the consensus of this thread that seems to have settled on that, which I politely disagree with. With which I politely disagree. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/56 "2026-05-13T22:51:48Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > Is it something they picked up doing too much Shakespeare in their college drama classes? I’d say it comes from studying elocution. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2026, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/57 "2026-05-14T00:51:23Z")
I guess this is what Jonathan Harris affected to cover up his Bronx accent? Can you imagine Dr. Smith sounding like he came from Da Bronx? ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2026, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/58 "2026-05-14T14:36:51Z")
Fun fact about the Midatlantic and Boston / East Coast accents and their similarities to British English: one of the main similarities is the non-rhotic ‘R’, meaning the ‘R’ sound is not pronounced (at least in the case of some British accents, especially the more ‘posh’ accent variations): “Cahve the tuhkey, dahling.” “Pahk the cah in Hahvahd yahd”. It’s easy to believe that the ‘posh’ Brit non-rhotic accent is very old, and that most American accent variations became rhotic (pronouncing the ‘R’), but actually British accents were rhotic at the time of America becoming independent, and only became non-rhotic later on, so historically, fairly recently. So American accents didn’t evolve away from British accents in terms of rhoticism, it was the opposite. Accents in Shakespeare’s time probably sounded like a rhotic mix of Irish with a hint of Appalachia. So Midatlantic and Boston / East Coast accents didn’t keep their non-rhotic quality from the time of American independence, they changed along with the posh Engish accents so they would sound more ‘posh’ themselves. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2026, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384/59 "2026-05-14T15:07:21Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Accents in Shakespeare’s time probably sounded like a rhotic mix of Irish with a hint of Appalachia. I once saw a scholar recite a soliloquy from Shakespeare twice, first in modern RP, then in what he claimed was Shakespeare’s natural Warwickshire dialect. It sounded a lot like an Irish brogue, or a Scottish burr. The brogue was a lot easier to understand than the RP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-accent/422384.md?page=2)