# What Is That Jazz Song With The Exceptionally Weird Time Signature **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 1, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156 "2014-09-01T15:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/1 "2014-09-01T15:21:32Z")
I have a vague memory of hearing about a jazz musician who composed music in ridiculously weird time signatures, just for the lulz. One of his more unusual bits had a time signature of 15/13 or something. Any idea who this was. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/2 "2014-09-01T15:27:09Z")
You might be thinking of Dave Brubeck’s “Out of Time” album. I wouldn’t call the time signatures “exceptionally weird,” but they were somewhat unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/3 "2014-09-01T15:28:35Z")
The first thing that came to mind is Bernstein’s\* West Side Story\*. I don’t have a good cite right now, but it’s got some really wacky signatures. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/4 "2014-09-01T15:36:26Z")
Aside from Brubeck (I agree with **pulykamell** about his stuff not being all that weird) you might be thinking of [Don Ellis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Ellis) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/5 "2014-09-01T15:51:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > You might be thinking of Dave Brubeck’s “Out of Time” album. I wouldn’t call the time signatures “exceptionally weird,” but they were somewhat unusual. Crap. I mean “Time Out” album. Damn faulty cusp-of-middle-age memory. “Out of Time” is, of course, an R.E.M. album. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/6 "2014-09-01T15:57:14Z")
> [@Elemenopy](#): > > The first thing that came to mind is Bernstein’s\* West Side Story\*. I don’t have a good cite right now, but it’s got some really wacky signatures. The song “America” is particularly cited for having alternating bars of 6/8 and 3/4. [Here it is notated](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_(West_Side_Story_song)). You can notate it in one time signature if you wanted, though (and it’s not unusual to see it notated just in 6/8–and from my experience, it most usually is.) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/7 "2014-09-01T16:47:49Z")
Could be Brubeck’s _Time Out_, _Time Further Out_, _Time In_, _Time Signatures_, or one of his hundred-odd other albums. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/8 "2014-09-01T17:03:35Z")
\ So, a band has just gotten some new sheet music, and it’s in 7/8 time. But none of the band members has ever played a piece in 7 before, and nobody really knows how to count it out. After several minutes of puzzling over it, the drummer exclaims “Wait, I’ve got it-- It’s ONE-two-three-four-Five-six-se-ven”. \ ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/9 "2014-09-01T17:56:14Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > One of his more unusual bits had a time signature of 15/13 or something. I’m hardly a music expert, but is there even such a thing as a 13th note? ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/10 "2014-09-01T18:23:52Z")
You don’t mean “Chain Reaction” by Hank Levy (and Don Ellis), now do you? Don Ellis never met an odd time signature he didn’t like. Very cool to hear and great to play, though. We’re still catching up to Don Ellis, like Mingus and Brubeck and Gil Evans. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ooU-pXnJ8ZQ/hqdefault.jpg "Chain Reaction by Hank Levy - Don Ellis Orchestra") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooU-pXnJ8ZQ) I also recommend the Don Ellis documentary: [http://www.amazon.com/Don-Ellis-Electric-Heart/dp/B00IKXQU8U](http://www.amazon.com/Don-Ellis-Electric-Heart/dp/B00IKXQU8U) … or any Don Ellis album. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/11 "2014-09-01T18:42:50Z")
The most distinctive “odd” tune of Brubeck’s was [Unsquare Dance](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDB4K5zCcfk), which was in 7/4. He also wrote a tune called [Eleven Four](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60WB6Aepxmc), which is very nice, and another called _World’s Fair_ in 13/4. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/12 "2014-09-01T18:48:45Z")
Listen for Joe Morello’s response when they nail the ending. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/13 "2014-09-01T21:59:55Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > I’m hardly a music expert, but is there even such a thing as a 13th note? No. (ETA: Or maybe I should say, yes, in theory there’s no reason such a note couldn’t exist.) But there are “irrational” time signatures out there. I’ve never seen 13, but I’ve seen 10 and 12 in the “denominator.” See Brian Ferneyhaugh. It’s not exactly mainstream notation, but it’s out there. 99.99% of the time, all you’re going to see as the bottom number is some multiple of 2. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/14 "2014-09-01T22:05:02Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The most distinctive “odd” tune of Brubeck’s was [Unsquare Dance](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDB4K5zCcfk), which was in 7/4. I don’t know if this is interesting or not, but I’m a wedding photographer and do a lot of weddings in cultures outside the typical “American wedding.” I’ve noticed that in Greek and Indian weddings, in particular, it is not uncommon to hear music in 7s, and that people seem to have no problem dancing to it and counting it out. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/15 "2014-09-01T22:15:33Z")
Brubeck’s _Take Five_ is a classic, and another one that jumps to mind is Pat Metheney’s _The First Circle_ Lots of music in unusual signatures is listed [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures). ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/16 "2014-09-02T01:50:53Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > The song “America” is particularly cited for having alternating bars of 6/8 and 3/4. [Here it is notated](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_(West_Side_Story_song)). You can notate it in one time signature if you wanted, though (and it’s not unusual to see it notated just in 6/8–and from my experience, it most usually is.) That’s not really all that unusual; that pattern also shows up a bunch in _Man of la Mancha_ as well, and is a fairly common Spanish dance rhythm. > [@Twoflower](#): > > I’m hardly a music expert, but is there even such a thing as a 13th note? Sure: it’s 1/13th of a whole note. It’s a little silly, though. The thing is, at the end of the day, the bottom number of a time signature is largely irrelevant. A composer may choose to write something as 2/2 instead of 2/4 because they want a certain feel, but that’s a question of convention, not rule. Really, there’s no practical difference between 2/4 and 2/2; you can interchange the two by changing all the note values and doubling or halving the tempo as appropriate. There are also conventions dictating the difference between simple meters and compound or complex meters\*; if the “numerator” is larger than 4, the “denominator” will tend to dictate the difference–1, 2, or 4 will tend to denote simple meters, while 8 or 16 will tend to be compound or complex. But, again, those are conventions, and can easily be broken. Something like 15/13 could easily be 15/8 or 15/4, or whatever. The 15 is the important part. Now, that said, it can become interesting if you’re pairing it with other meters (say, 5/4) while keeping the whole note length the same. Still, even then, you’re just doing various tuplet lengths and playing around with bar lines. \*Simple rhythms are sub-divided in two, and when written, the top number tends to indicate the number of beats. Compound meters are sub-divided in three, and the top number generally indicates the number of sub-divisions. So 6/4 would probably be six quarter-note beats, each subdivided in two, while 6/8 would usually be two dotted-quarter-note beats, each subdivided in three. Complex meters have beats of different length; 5/8 is usually two beats, one two eighth notes long and one three eighth notes long (5/4 tends to just be five quarter-note beats). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/17 "2014-09-02T02:38:47Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Now, that said, it can become interesting if you’re pairing it with other meters (say, 5/4) while keeping the whole note length the same. That’s exactly how I know those oddball meters to be used. Lemme see if I can dig up the Straight Dope discussion on this… Yes. [Here’s the thread on it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=234983). ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/18 "2014-09-02T02:44:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > You might be thinking of Dave Brubeck’s “Out of Time” album. I wouldn’t call the time signatures “exceptionally weird,” but they were somewhat unusual. I immediately thought of Blue Rondo. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/19 "2014-09-02T07:46:36Z")
What the hell does a 10th or 12th note look like? I guess you could use a dotted 8th for a 12th, but a 10th? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/20 "2014-09-02T08:00:50Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The most distinctive “odd” tune of Brubeck’s was [Unsquare Dance](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDB4K5zCcfk), which was in 7/4. Murray Gold’s [theme for the Eleventh Doctor](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kSf8w28Fs4) is in 7/4. Because 7+4=11. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156.md?page=2)