# What Is That Jazz Song With The Exceptionally Weird Time Signature **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 1, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156 "2014-09-01T15:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/21 "2014-09-02T13:58:05Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Murray Gold’s [theme for the Eleventh Doctor](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kSf8w28Fs4) is in 7/4. Because 7+4=11. Also, Pink Floyd’s “Money.” ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/22 "2014-09-02T14:25:21Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Murray Gold’s [theme for the Eleventh Doctor](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kSf8w28Fs4) is in 7/4. Because 7+4=11. It’s one better, innit? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/23 "2014-09-02T16:24:23Z")
My chorus has performed [Deck the Halls in 7/8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZp10zXr6M) a few times. Lots of fun. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/24 "2014-09-02T16:28:17Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > I have a vague memory of hearing about a jazz musician who composed music in ridiculously weird time signatures, just for the lulz. One of his more unusual bits had a time signature of 15/13 or something. > > Any idea who this was. To me it sounds like the kind of thing [John Cage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cage) would’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/25 "2014-09-02T16:59:11Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I don’t know if this is interesting or not, but I’m a wedding photographer and do a lot of weddings in cultures outside the typical “American wedding.” I’ve noticed that in Greek and Indian weddings, in particular, it is not uncommon to hear music in 7s, and that people seem to have no problem dancing to it and counting it out. Even time signatures are pretty much a Western thing, no? Odd time signatures are not considered odd at all in a lot of cultures, including Indian and Greek. (Especially Indian, I think.) Balkan music is all 7/8 and 5/8 and such too, iirc. People dance to that like crazy. The best advice I ever got on this stuff came from a bandmate who said, “Stop thinking and PLAY.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/26 "2014-09-02T17:44:47Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > Even time signatures are pretty much a Western thing, no? > > Odd time signatures are not considered odd at all in a lot of cultures, including Indian and Greek. (Especially Indian, I think.) > > Balkan music is all 7/8 and 5/8 and such too, iirc. People dance to that like crazy. > > The best advice I ever got on this stuff came from a bandmate who said, “Stop thinking and PLAY.” Yep, Balkan and Hungarian music also gets fairly “odd.” I do remember 11/8 rhythms in Bulgarian music, especially. It gives the music a nice flow. I hear it as a combination of “long” beats (3 eighth notes) and “short” bears (2 eight notes), so three bars of 7/8 might be long, short, short/long, short, short/long, short, short. It takes a little to get used to, but it’s not that hard once you split things up into 2s and 3s. (By the way, I’m hearing bars of 7/8 and 4/4 in that “Deck the Halls” version. It doesn’t seem to be 7/8 straight through.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/27 "2014-09-02T17:50:18Z")
For example, [here’s a Balkan tune in 11/8](http://archive.folx.org/tune/balkan-tune-118-kopanitsa-1141). It’s split up 2-2-3-2-2 all the way through. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/28 "2014-09-02T18:37:50Z")
[Multi-part canon in 7/4!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G28abbUw4g8) Incidentally, this is a piece that defies the conventions I mentioned earlier. It’s notated in 7/4 but is definitely in three (2+2+3). The metronome marking is quarter note=266, which is ludicrous speed.[/Spaceballs] ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/29 "2014-09-02T18:41:32Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > [Multi-part canon in 7/4!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G28abbUw4g8) > > Incidentally, this is a piece that defies the conventions I mentioned earlier. It’s notated in 7/4 but is definitely in three (2+2+3). The metronome marking is quarter note=266, which is ludicrous speed.[/Spaceballs] What do you mean by “in three”? It’s in seven. I’d notate it as 7/8 myself, but fast 7/4 works, too. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/30 "2014-09-02T18:53:06Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > What do you mean by “in three”? It’s in seven. I’d notate it as 7/8 myself, but fast 7/4 works, too. I mean you feel it (and conduct it) in three uneven beats. The first two beats subdivided in two, the third in three. The accents are on the first, third, and fifth quarter note. It essentially feels like a fast 3/2, except the third beat is a little longer. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/31 "2014-09-02T18:56:17Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I mean you feel it (and conduct it) in three uneven beats. The first two beats subdivided in two, the third in three. The accents are on the first, third, and fifth quarter note. It essentially feels like a fast 3/2, except the third beat is a little longer. I see. That’s generally how something in 7/8 is felt, though. 7/4, too, but usually slower. (And you’d probably count out each beat, but there’s still an underlying grouping of two and three, in my experience.) ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/32 "2014-09-02T19:10:52Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I see. That’s generally how something in 7/8 is felt, though. 7/4, too, but usually slower. (And you’d probably count out each beat, but there’s still an underlying grouping of two and three, in my experience.) Sure. If I wanted 7 actual beats, though, I’d write it in 7/4. I’d probably never count to seven either, just feel it as 1+2, 1+2, 1+2+3. I figure Britten wrote it in 7/4 to save ink. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/33 "2014-09-02T19:27:23Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Sure. If I wanted 7 actual beats, though, I’d write it in 7/4. I’d probably never count to seven either, just feel it as 1+2, 1+2, 1+2+3. > > I figure Britten wrote it in 7/4 to save ink. Actually, come to think of it, when I count 7/4, it’s usually 4/4+3/4 or 3/4+4/4 (which I guess actually works out to 2+2+3 or 3+2+2, if you want). Thinking of Pink Floyd’s “Money” and counting it, for example, my instinct is to count 1234 123. I’m sure everyone’s a little different, though. That’s just the way I do it. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/34 "2014-09-02T19:44:11Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Actually, come to think of it, when I count 7/4, it’s usually 4/4+3/4 or 3/4+4/4 (which I guess actually works out to 2+2+3 or 3+2+2, if you want). Thinking of Pink Floyd’s “Money” and counting it, for example, my instinct is to count 1234 123. I’m sure everyone’s a little different, though. That’s just the way I do it. Yeah, for something slower like Money or Solsbury Hill, I count to seven in a 3+4 or 4+3 pattern (Solsbury Hill alternates). But I still think of those as seven beats, whereas 7/8 (or a really fast 7/4) I really think in 3. If you were conducting a slow 7/4, you would have to do it in 7 (rather than 4/4 + 3/4), or your low brass would get really confused trying to count the downbeats during their 87 bars of rest. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/35 "2014-09-02T20:27:15Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > 99.99% of the time, all you’re going to see as the bottom number is some multiple of 2. _Powers_ of 2 (never seen a 6 down there). Even the Allman Brothers “Whipping Post” has sections in 11/4. “Money” was mentioned above and I never decided if the guitar solo was in 4/4 to give the listener some relief or because the guitarist couldn’t solo in 7. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/36 "2014-09-04T11:46:48Z")
You’re perhaps thinking of **John McLaughlin** who tried a lot of weird time signatures with **Mahavishu Orchestra** back in the 70s. Listen to _Birds of Fire_, _Pastoral_ or _Lila’s Dance_. I tried to play _Guardian Angel_ some ten years ago and although the time signatures change with almost every bar (5/8 - 6/8 - 7/8 - 13/8), it wasn’t impossible to play. Slowly. Since we’re talking about time signatures does anyone know what happens in _ABACAB_ ( **Genesis** ) during the fills played by the synths? It sounds to me as if the drums and keyboards are not playing the same pattern. The former are very even (2/2 or 4/4?) and the latter somewhat odd. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156/37 "2014-09-04T12:28:09Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > _Powers_ of 2 (never seen a 6 down there). Whoops. That is, indeed, what I meant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-that-jazz-song-with-the-exceptionally-weird-time-signature/697156.md?page=1)