# What is the argument in favor of gay marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448 "2006-01-04T19:53:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![homeskillet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7ba0ec/32.png) [@homeskillet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/homeskillet)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/141 "2006-01-05T22:26:28Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I oppose it on the general principle that it costs me too much money. **And by too much money, I mean "any money."** That’s what makes your argument so ridiculous! You’d rather deny millions equal protection and benefits under the law than spare a dime? Seems a bit odd coming from Mr. Generosity. Please, I don’t believe that for a minute. Sounds to me like you’re just rationalizing what probably boils down to “I think gay is icky”. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/142 "2006-01-05T22:32:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why not, though? Why should you give money to anyone or anything that doesn’t directly benefit you personally? That’s your metric for not supporting gay marriage (which is highly suspect, btw) so why do you not apply it to charitable causes? So because I analyze one public policy decision on pure economic self interest, I must make all decisions that same way? Sorry, but I suspect that you support the type of foolish consistency that Emerson warned against ie “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.” ---
**Author:** ![homeskillet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7ba0ec/32.png) [@homeskillet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/homeskillet)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/143 "2006-01-05T22:37:51Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > So because I analyze one public policy decision on pure economic self interest, I must make all decisions that same way? Sorry, but I suspect that you support the type of foolish consistency that Emerson warned against ie “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.” So are we to assume then that this decision was based economically \*and \* on the flip of a coin? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/144 "2006-01-05T22:40:18Z")
> [@homeskillet](#): > > That’s what makes your argument so ridiculous! You’d rather deny millions equal protection and benefits under the law than spare a dime? Seems a bit odd coming from Mr. Generosity. > Please, I don’t believe that for a minute. Sounds to me like you’re just rationalizing what probably boils down to “I think gay is icky”. I am anything but Mr. Generosity. Sounds to me like you’re reduced to arguing against a straw man that I never said. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/145 "2006-01-05T22:43:02Z")
> [@homeskillet](#): > > So are we to assume then that this decision was based economically \*and \* on the flip of a coin? I see your use of non sequitors is still strong. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/146 "2006-01-05T22:48:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Making a decision about the law is not the same as expressing a philospohical conclusion. A judge might not think there’s anything wrong with smoking pot but he would still have to follow the law in sentencing pot smokers. > > Anyone who _philosophically_ thinks it’s ok to deprive people of their basic civil rights is not a nice person…or at least, not a very thoughtful one. You are correct with regard to a lower court but not with regard to the highest court in the state, as the Massachusetts court was here. The Massachusetts court, had it followed precedent, would’ve upheld the statute at issue and not allowed gay marriage, however, the majority of the court was philosophically in favor of gay marriage and so they struck down the statute and ordered the state to allow gay marriage. You are saying that the 3\* Goodridge\* dissenting justices who disagreed with the majority are thoughtless people and I don’t think you’re qualified to make that decision and that it is arrogant of you to assume that you can. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/147 "2006-01-05T22:55:44Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Why do you think that cost you any money? > > From [here](http://financialplan.about.com/cs/taxes/a/MarriagePenalty.htm):So at worst, it cost you nothing if they marry and file jointly. If the marriage penalty kicks back in, it actually creates revenue for the government. > > Next? No, that’s not how it works. If you ever took a tax class, you’d know that whenever a tax benefit is conferred it costs the US Treasury money. Allowing gays to marry and file joint returns and claim either other as dependents confers a tax benefit that costs money. That money must either then come from another source or the government must reduce spending. The government ain’t gonna reduce spending anytime soon. There’s a war against terror on, doncha know. So if a tax benefit is conferred on group A, then taxes on group b are going up, even if it is infintesimal at the micro individual level. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/148 "2006-01-05T22:58:41Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > So because I analyze one public policy decision on pure economic self interest, I must make all decisions that same way? Sorry, but I suspect that you support the type of foolish consistency that Emerson warned against ie “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.” Why can’t you answer a simple question? Why do you give money to charity when it derives no direct benefit to yourself? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/149 "2006-01-05T23:14:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fascinating. You can see that protecting our children benefits you as a member of society, but you can’t see that the same is true for same-sex marriage? None have been specified so far. You are welcome to specify how the society as a whole benefits from gay marriage of course. Protecting children, at the very least, protects the perpetuation of the nation, and if you want to go that far, of the species. Protecting gay marriage obviously has no impact on those concerns. > [@Bricker](#): > > Apart from protection of offspring, are there any benefits to marriage as it exists now that you agree innure to society? Of course, and so what? Are those other nonfinancial benefits of marriage (love, companionship, having a live in buddy to drive you to the emergency room in case of an accident) excluded from gay people now because they cannot legally marry? The answer is of course not. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/150 "2006-01-05T23:16:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 30% of all accidents are caused by drunk drivers. > > Therefore 70% of accidents are caused by sober drivers. > > Therefore drunks are the safer drivers. Eggs-actly. It’s only when you factor in things like the vastly higher number of driver-miles accounted for by sober drivers that any kind of meaning begins to emerge from the raw statistics. Or as I said in another thread, AFAIK zero children were mauled by pet Komodo dragons in this country last year, whereas many children were mauled by dogs; therefore I should be more concerned if my neighbour buys a dog than if he buys a Komodo dragon. 😉 at **Polycarp**. Excellent! I hereby truthfully declare that I do indeed sugar my porridge. Should I therefore utter any homophobia in the future, I’ll be spared the tedious necessity of rebutting the assertion that I am a self-loathing unacknowledged gay. :: blinks in mild astonishment that anyone expects to get away with a line like “fags shouldn’t marry, because gay sex squicks me out” :: ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/151 "2006-01-05T23:18:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why can’t you answer a simple question? Why do you give money to charity when it derives no direct benefit to yourself? I have answered it and you continue to unjustifiably disabuse me and my motives. Read my previous posts. Why don’t you tell me what answer you’re looking for and then I’ll explain why you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Serket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Serket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serket)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/152 "2006-01-05T23:38:59Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > Why should women be allowed to vote? [Nineteenth Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) > [@](#): > > Why should blacks be able to eat in the same establishments as whites? [Civil Rights Act of 1964](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964) > [@](#): > > Why should Jews be allowed to own property? [Fifth Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) If you have enough votes and state support you can put anything you want into the Constitution. I would also like to address another topic. Abuse in marriages of straight couples is not justification for gay marriage. The abusers should be punished according to the law. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/153 "2006-01-05T23:45:34Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I have answered it and you continue to unjustifiably disabuse me and my motives. Read my previous posts. Why don’t you tell me what answer you’re looking for and then I’ll explain why you’re wrong. Have you? I must have missed it. Would you mind restating it? What I’m looking for, obviously, is an admission that you stance on gay marriage is illogical and devoid of basic human compassion, but I’m not holding my breath. **Serkat** : the question isn’t what point of law allows for those rights and protections, the question is, why were those points of law made into law in the first place? Why should women have the right to vote? Why was segregation wrong? Heck, I wouldn’t mind seeing **zmboniracer** answer that question. Would you have supported women’s sufferage, if you had been alive when it was a topic for debate? Why? Giving women the franchise cost quite a bit of money, and it actually took something away from men by diluting the power of their individual votes. Would you have opposed that? Same question about the civil rights act. Unless you’re a black woman, of course, in which case maybe you should explain to me why I should have supported either of those measures, when neither benefited me directly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/154 "2006-01-06T00:20:11Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Of course, and so what? Are those other nonfinancial benefits of marriage (love, companionship, having a live in buddy to drive you to the emergency room in case of an accident) excluded from gay people now because they cannot legally marry? The answer is of course not. Many are; many more are unfairly expensive to get. If same sex marriage is such a horrible imposition on you, why aren’t you opposing standard marriage ? Could it be…because your motivation is anti gay bigotry, not money ? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/155 "2006-01-06T00:49:58Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Many are; many more are unfairly expensive to get. > > If same sex marriage is such a horrible imposition on you, why aren’t you opposing standard marriage ? Could it be…because your motivation is anti gay bigotry, not money ? Because, as I’ve said already, same sex marriage is the most efficient way to have and raise children and therefore contributes greatly to society. Gay marriage contributes nothing to society as a whole and nothing to me in particular. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/156 "2006-01-06T00:57:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Have you? I must have missed it. Would you mind restating it? > > What I’m looking for, obviously, is an admission that you stance on gay marriage is illogical and devoid of basic human compassion, but I’m not holding my breath. > > **Serkat** : the question isn’t what point of law allows for those rights and protections, the question is, why were those points of law made into law in the first place? Why should women have the right to vote? Why was segregation wrong? > > Heck, I wouldn’t mind seeing **zmboniracer** answer that question. Would you have supported women’s sufferage, if you had been alive when it was a topic for debate? Why? Giving women the franchise cost quite a bit of money, and it actually took something away from men by diluting the power of their individual votes. Would you have opposed that? Same question about the civil rights act. Unless you’re a black woman, of course, in which case maybe you should explain to me why I should have supported either of those measures, when neither benefited me directly. That’s an easy one and entirely consistent with my position. I would’ve supported women’s sufferage and the civil rights act whole heartedly. It would cost me but would benefit society as a whole. As I said, it is wrong to deprive anyone of the right to vote or to own property. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/157 "2006-01-06T00:59:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What I’m looking for, obviously, is an admission that you stance on gay marriage is illogical and devoid of basic human compassion, but I’m not holding my breath. Good thing. I’d hate to have to do mouth to mouth on you, especially since my answer is logical and I am full of human compassion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/158 "2006-01-06T01:03:18Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Because, as I’ve said already, same sex marriage is the most efficient way to have and raise children and therefore contributes greatly to society. Gay marriage contributes nothing to society as a whole and nothing to me in particular. A source of adoptive parents come to mind. Besides, gay people _are_ part of society; you seem to think they are Morlocks or something, who only come to the surface to pick your pockets. Also, by that standard the insane, elderly and mentally disabled should be left to die. > [@zamboniracer](#): > > I am full of human compassion. So you don’t consider gays human ? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/159 "2006-01-06T01:17:29Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > A source of adoptive parents come to mind. Besides, gay people _are_ part of society; you seem to think they are Morlocks or something, who only come to the surface to pick your pockets. > > Also, by that standard the insane, elderly and mentally disabled should be left to die. > > So you don’t consider gays human ? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448/160 "2006-01-06T01:20:30Z")
How does letting women vote “benefit society as a whole” in a way that letting gays marry does not? And why is it wrong to deprive people of the right to vote or own property, but not wrong to deprive people of the right to marry? Sorry, but there’s absolutely nothing consistent or compassionate about your position here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-argument-in-favor-of-gay-marriage/338448.md?page=9)