# What is the best defense of the apartheid-like system Israel enforces in occupied/settled/disputed territories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2026, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314 "2026-05-22T17:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2026, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/181 "2026-07-31T14:39:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What I don’t understand here, and perhaps you would like to elaborate, is why so many people keep giving Isreal a pass for things that we wouldn’t tolerate if anyone else did it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Just read through this thread and you will see that many people think those things are _justified_. Who ever justified it? (Unless you are referring to the other thread someone recently linked to in which the settler viewed themselves as motivated by some sort of religious-nationalistic mission and the Bible was their justification.) The Israeli government, at some point, facilitated illegal settlers, or at least made no move to stop them, and the international community by no means condoned it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > We are a million miles way from Israel “upholding people’s civil rights.” That isn’t going to turn on an election. It’s in the realms of fantasy. If Israel is occupying a zone, then I would say it is their responsibility to stabilize the situation. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I don’t understand how we can see everything that has happened in the last three years and just say that it’s an “Israeli problem” and we should just leave them to it. > > You can’t leave people to rot like we are in Gaza right now; you can’t steal houses and land and stop people from literally crossing the street like they are in the West Bank and _not_ expect the situation to explode again in the future. We can’t keep doing things the same way we have always done. Past Israeli governments have participated in peace talks, hence why I said it is an Israeli problem to replace the current government. Israel can be internationally pressured, too. Note, just because the Israeli government is corrupt does not mean the various Palestinian governmental organizations are not corrupt as well. In fact, these things go hand in hand. Israel is the local power, is the main difference. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2026, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/182 "2026-07-31T15:08:52Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Who ever justified it? …as MrDibble points out up-thread: > [@](#): > > Pretty sure if someone had posted that here on Oct 7, they would have been insta-banned. You can go review those posts for yourself. I’m not linking to them. I don’t want to give their arguments any more daylight. > [@DPRK](#): > > If Israel is occupying a zone, then I would say it is their responsibility to stabilize the situation. It’s an _illegal occupation_. Their responsibility isn’t to “stabilize the situation.” It’s to follow international law and to _end the occupation_. > [@DPRK](#): > > Israel is the local power, is the main difference. What part of it being an illegal occupation do you not understand? The voters will vote to continue the illegal occupation. The voters are not going to end this. > [@dcbwhaley](#): > > Because the German state killed so many Jews in the Holocaust during WWII and the world still feels guilty about that. That doesn’t excuse treating Palestinians as subhuman and giving the state of Isreal a pass on its atrocities and warcrimes. ---
**Author:** ![dcbwhaley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcbwhaley/32/21437_2.png) [@dcbwhaley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dcbwhaley)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2026, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/183 "2026-07-31T15:50:58Z")
I agree with you. But that is the way it is. The holocaust is the Jewish get out of jail card. I also deplore the conflation of Zionism with Judaism so that criticism of Israel is seen as antisemitic ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2026, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/184 "2026-07-31T15:56:58Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If you truly wanted to make the world a better place… You’re replying to a post I made two months ago, and not addressing any part of the post. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2026, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/185 "2026-07-31T16:06:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s an _illegal occupation_. Their responsibility isn’t to “stabilize the situation.” It’s to follow international law and to _end the occupation_. They should. Now, if Israel picked up its stuff and went home tomorrow, what you are left with is an ungoverned territory full of illegal settlers and different sides of various militias. Maybe not much different from what we have today, but, since all this is adjacent to Israel, I do not realistically see how Israel can be kept away from the negotiating table for what happens there. Regarding the Israeli voters, has there ever been any strong movement to annex the West Bank or Gaza? Sure, some do, but I am not convinced that Israel as a whole wants responsibility for those territories (even as an apartheid-like system) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2026, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/186 "2026-07-31T16:30:32Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Now, if Israel picked up its stuff and went home tomorrow, what you are left with is an unincorporated territory full of illegal settlers and different sides of various militias. Maybe not much different from what we have today, but, since all this is adjacent to Israel, I do not realistically see how Israel can be kept away from the negotiating table for what happens there. …again: I’m not sure you understand what illegal occupation actually means. It means Palestinians outside of Gaza can’t get back in and Palestinians inside of Gaza can’t get out. That’s a _prison_. Or more correctly, considering most of the buildings and infrastructure have been damaged or destroyed, a _dystopian nightmare_. It means in the West Bank Palestinians don’t have freedom of movement. It means constantly being harassed and persecuted. Palestinians are regularly detained under what is called [administrative detention.](https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention) That means _“In administrative detention, a person is held without trial without having committed an offense, on the grounds that he or she plans to break the law in the future. As this measure is supposed to be preventive, it has no time limit. The person is detained without legal proceedings, by order of the regional military commander, based on classified evidence that is not revealed to them. This leaves the detainees helpless – facing unknown allegations with no way to disprove them, not knowing when they will be released, and without being charged, tried or convicted.”_ There are thousands of Palestinians being held in administrative detention in what most human rights organisations characterise as torture camps. Ending the illegal occupation means much more than “picking up its stuff and going home.” It means ending the siege. It means giving Palestinians dignity and the right to live like human beings. Do you not think Palestinians should be allowed that? They should be allowed to control their borders. They should be allowed to build hospitals and airports. They should be allowed to be able to [fish](https://www.arabnews.com/node/2652470/middle-east). To collect [rainwater](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/). > [@DPRK](#): > > Sure, some do, but I am not convinced that Israel as a whole wants responsibility for those territories (even as an apartheid-like system) What exactly do you think has been happening for the last few decades? The apartheid-like system already exists. > **[Amnesty International Aotearoa New Zealand](https://amnesty.org.nz/israel-s-apartheid-against-palestinians/)** > > Amnesty International is a global movement of 10 million people in over 150 countries who are standing with humanity and working to build a world based on justice, equality and compassion. Take Action. Donate. Get Involved. [https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid](https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid) [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2026/01/un-report-chronicles-intensification-decades-severe-racial-discrimination](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2026/01/un-report-chronicles-intensification-decades-severe-racial-discrimination) > **[AMNESTYINTAPARTHEDRPT\_240622.pdf](https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/AMNESTYINTAPARTHEDRPT_240622.pdf)** > **[World Court Finds Israel Responsible for Apartheid](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/19/world-court-finds-israel-responsible-apartheid)** > > The International Court of Justice (ICJ) issued an advisory opinion on July 19, 2024, with significant consequences for human rights protections in Palestine under Israel’s 57-year occupation. The opinion stems from a December 2022 request by the... Its been going on for a very very long time. And if the voters didn’t want it it would have ended a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2026, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/187 "2026-07-31T21:36:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re replying to a post I made two months ago, and not addressing any part of the post. Welcome to the internet bruh ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2026, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/188 "2026-08-01T03:08:15Z")
There is illegal occupation by military forces, and there are also various illegal squatters whom I assume are supposed to be, or were, the “beneficiaries” of the current apartheid? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Palestinians are regularly detained under what is called [administrative detention.](https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention) I am positive it is worse than you think and anybody at all may be “administratively detained” indefinitely: Palestinians, Israeli citizens, whoever. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Ending the illegal occupation means much more than “picking up its stuff and going home.” It means ending the siege. It means giving Palestinians dignity and the right to live like human beings. Do you not think Palestinians should be allowed that? They should be allowed to control their borders. They should be allowed to build hospitals and airports. They should be allowed to be able to [fish](https://www.arabnews.com/node/2652470/middle-east). To collect [rainwater](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/). I cynically imagine that Israel would be very happy if there were a proxy stooge government oppressing Palestinians instead of the Israeli military doing it directly. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And if the voters didn’t want it it would have ended a long time ago. There are so many polarities among the Israeli public, but I honestly think that Joe Sixpack does not care about the Palestinians all that much, especially when the economy really starts tanking. An (elected) government could manage quite a lot in a peace treaty as a fait accompli. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2026, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/189 "2026-08-01T04:06:00Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > There is illegal occupation by military forces, and there are also various illegal squatters whom I assume are supposed to be, or were, the “beneficiaries” of the current apartheid? …there doesn’t have to be any “beneficiaries.” Sometimes cruelty is the point. Look at this video of Ben-Gvir taunting detained flotilla activists and prisoners. > **[Footage appears to show Israel's Ben-Gvir taunting detained flotilla activists](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkJ3hNergOM%2F)** > > Israeli police forced detained activists who were on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla to kneel on the ground with their hands tied behind their backs while a minist... [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0pHkhyaq6Rg](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0pHkhyaq6Rg) \_o&3 [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/64Q8ivs\_auQ](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/64Q8ivs_auQ) \_o&3 He’s _loving it_. Apartheid doesn’t just happen in a vacuum. It happens because of a belief that some humans are inferior. > [@DPRK](#): > > I am positive it is worse than you think I can absolutely 100% assure you I’m being restrained in how I’m expressing myself because of the forum we are in and the rules we have to abide by. I’ve spent three years on this forum going in depth explaining how much worse it all is and I’m absolutely sure I know that its worse than YOU think. Because: > [@DPRK](#): > > and anybody at all may be “administratively detained” indefinitely: Palestinians, Israeli citizens, whoever. We absolutely know who is and isn’t being held in administrative detention. [https://hamoked.org/prisoners-charts.php](https://hamoked.org/prisoners-charts.php) There are, as far as I’m aware at the moment: zero Isreali’s being held under administrative detention. Before the ordered release there were only 16. Now according to the Times of Isreal: > **[Katz releases all settlers in administrative detention, ties it to...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/katz-says-settlers-in-administrative-detention-to-go-free-ties-it-to-palestinian-release/)** > > 'It is better for the families of Jewish settlers to be happy than the families of freed terrorists,' defense minister says ahead of Gaza deal > [@Times of Isreal](#): > > Katz in November [announced](https://www.timesofisrael.com/defense-minister-declares-end-to-administrative-detention-against-west-bank-settlers/) an end to new administrative detention orders for West Bank settlers, meaning Israel would only use the controversial policy of holding suspects without charge against Palestinian terror suspects. This is NOT a “treat-everyone-as-equal” policy. > [@DPRK](#): > > I cynically imagine that Israel would be very happy if there were a proxy stooge government oppressing Palestinians instead of the Israeli military doing it directly. You are aware that this is exactly what is happening? And that it was part of the ceasefire agreement Hamas signed last year? Hamas has agreed to step down as government to be replaced by the National Committee for the Administration of Gaza (NCAG), which is a “U.S. and U.N. backed technocratic committee.” It’s the “proxy stooge government.” The only thing holding it up is that Isreal won’t let them into Gaza. > [@DPRK](#): > > There are so many polarities among the Israeli public, but I honestly think that Joe Sixpack does not care about the Palestinians all that much, especially when the economy really starts tanking. An (elected) government could manage quite a lot in a peace treaty as a fait accompli. Why do you keep talking about “peace treaty?” In Gaza there is a ceasefire in place, and Hamas is soon to be replaced by an oversight committee. Since the ceasefire was signed, Israel has killed over a thousand people and violated the ceasefire almost daily while Hamas…has _not_. What peace treaty are you talking about? In the West Bank they are experiencing ethnic cleansing. Just today we are getting headlines like this: " **Israeli Military Cracks Down on West Bank Village as Settlers March In**." [https://www.reuters.com/world/israeli-military-cracks-down-west-bank-village-settlers-march-2026-07-31/](https://www.reuters.com/world/israeli-military-cracks-down-west-bank-village-settlers-march-2026-07-31/) I mean, that’s just a ridiculous headline and a terrible way to contextualise what is happening and its no wonder people in the west largely don’t understand whats going on. But who is supposed to be signing a peace deal here? The IDF are helping settlers pillage, steal and commit pogroms. What do you think should be happening instead? Have you heard the saying “every accusation is a confession”? There is a lot of rhetoric in this thread about what “Arab Muslims want to do.” There is very little said about the hateful genocidal rhetoric that is said on a daily basis from Isreali leadership. The average Joe Sixpack either supports this or is turning a blind eye to it. And while I know there is plenty of genuine opposition in Israel, and I acknowledge that there are Joe Sixpack’s who are horrified at what is being done in their name, they are suppressed just the same way pro-Palestinian sentiment is being suppressed _globally_. The question I put to you again is why we give Isreal a pass here. Gaza is essentially destroyed, and the ongoing genocide continues. The West Bank faces almost daily incursions and pogroms. They live under apartheid. This isn’t right, and it needs to stop. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2026, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/190 "2026-08-01T08:00:06Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Now, if Israel picked up its stuff and went home tomorrow, what you are left with is an ungoverned territory full of illegal settlers and different sides of various militias. Surely ending the thing properly means _taking those settlers away_? Leaving them there would be a _de facto_ continuation of the occupation. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2026, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/191 "2026-08-01T08:13:42Z")
I do not see any kind of realistic end-of-occupation where they would be staying, especially since they do not want to live in a Palestinian state (the settller in the other thread admitted as much). Israel has pulled settlements back from Sinai, Gaza, maybe Lebanon before, so it is not like they do not know how to organize such a thing, though some of the West Bank settlements are really built up with thousands or tens of thousands of residents and therefore will require planning and mutual agreements to move everybody out. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2026, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/192 "2026-08-02T17:00:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “Leftists” want the party that is committing apartheid and genocide to stop the apartheid and genocide. You understand that using your analogy, you are defending the KKK right? When 70% of the Palestinian public support rape, torture and murder is it apartheid? When genocide is the official policy of the democratically elected government in Gaza why is Israel supposed to allow people like that to roam freely in society? I love leftism in general, but the [red-green alliance](https://www.start.umd.edu/publication/emerging-red-green-alliance-where-political-islam-meets-radical-left) is a mistake. So is performative activism. I feel like many people on the left look at how heroic MLK Jr was and they want to be just like him, so they want some oppressed minority group to side with. So they view whats happening in Palestine like what happened to the Indians in north America. White imperialist settlers stole the land from brown skinned natives, and called them terrorists when they fought back. But the situation is more complex than that. It would be like leftists in Japan siding with Trump and MAGA, and saying anyone who didn’t agree with them was racist towards oppressed white people. As for the OP, again, the best defense for the apartheid-like system is that the vast majority of Palestinians want to live in a racially and religiously pure ethnostate and they are willing to commit moral atrocities to accomplish that goal. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2026, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/193 "2026-08-02T17:26:13Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > 70% of the Palestinian public support rape, torture and murder Cite for this, please. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > the vast majority of Palestinians want to live in a racially and religiously pure ethnostate and they are willing to commit moral atrocities to accomplish that goal And this. Note that this is basically the exact justification for South African apartheid, American Jim Crow and slavery, and even the Holocaust. Your justification appears to be “those guys were wrong, but the Palestinians really do deserve it!”. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/194 "2026-08-03T02:01:06Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > When 70% of the Palestinian public support rape, torture and murder is it apartheid? …70% of the Palestinian public _doesn’t_ support rape, torture, and murder. This is a misrepresentation of what that poll actually said. And no, it _isn’t_ apartheid. Because words have meaning. Apartheid is governed by the Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. > [@](#): > > The Apartheid Convention declares that apartheid is a crime against humanity and that “inhuman acts resulting from the policies and practices of apartheid and similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination” are international crimes (art. 1). Article 2 defines the crime of apartheid –“which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa” – as covering “inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them”. > **[Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid](https://legal.un.org/avl/ha/cspca/cspca.html)** > > United Nations Audiovisual Library of International Law So what you describe here, which are basically the results of a political poll, isn’t apartheid. And what you seem to be suggesting here, which is that we punish people for what they may or may not have said years ago in a political poll, is calling for punishing people for _thought crimes_ and is _collective punishment_. We don’t punish people for having opinions. For example, I’ve argued here and in other threads that Isreal is responsible for genocide in Gaza. I’m not going to rehash those arguments here because that isn’t relevant to my point. But the people that I hold responsible for that aren’t the Israeli public, but the current government of Israel, the people who _ordered_ genocidal actions, and the people who _carried out those orders_. It doesn’t matter to me what opinion polls say the Israeli public does or doesn’t support. [This opinion poll](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/) suggests that 73% of Israelis think the military response against Hamas in Gaza “has been about right” OR hasn’t gone far enough. Does that mean 73% of Isrealis support genocide? Of _course not_. Because for starters the polling talks about the “military response against Hamas” and _not about the war in general_. Its a very specific framing. It’s very easy to twist these polling results into saying something that they don’t. Put ultimately, polling is just a snapshot of how people were feeling at a particular point in time. They shouldn’t be used as an instrument to _suppress and punish people_ just because they are a certain race, religion, or part of a group. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > When genocide is the official policy of the democratically elected government in Gaza Genocide isn’t actually the official policy of “the democratically elected government in Gaza.” And as soon as Israel decides to move on to the next phase of the peace agreement, Hamas won’t be the government in Gaza anymore. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > why is Israel supposed to allow people like that to roam freely in society? Because again, we don’t punish people because of opinion polls, because of misinformation, or because of propaganda. We don’t punish people because of thought crimes. We do punish people for the things they _actually_ do. The people that committed October the 7th were war criminals; they committed atrocities. I have zero problem with those that were responsible for those atrocities being held to account. But that _isn’t what we are talking about here_. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I love leftism in general, but the [red-green alliance](https://www.start.umd.edu/publication/emerging-red-green-alliance-where-political-islam-meets-radical-left) is a mistake. So the organisation that you’ve linked to here is “A Department of Homeland Security Emeritus Center of Excellence”, and I couldn’t imagine a more dystopian name or concept if I tried. There clearly is an agenda at play here. I’m not a “radical leftist.” I don’t have a “master frame of anti-globalization/anti-capitalism” nor am I in an alliance with any Islamists. Any arguments I make here _stand on their own merits_. If you want to disagree with me? Fine. Show me where I’m wrong. But how am I supposed to defend myself against what I could only describe as a fanciful conspiracy theory? > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So is performative activism. And the same with this. What makes activism “performative”? Am I being “performative” here? Is Mamdani being performative? How about Ms. Rachel? When does that line get crossed? > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I feel like many people on the left look at how heroic MLK Jr was and they want to be just like him, so they want some oppressed minority group to side with. So they view whats happening in Palestine like what happened to the Indians in north America. Why should we care about “how you feel?” This is Great Debates. And “feeling that many people on the left” think and act a certain way doesn’t mean that’s (largely) true. What this line of argument you are using here means is you don’t need to actually engage in the substance of what people like me are actually saying. It’s a dodge. Which is fine. You aren’t obligated to engage in the substance of what I’m saying. But the argument you make here is empty. It doesn’t say anything. Even if my “activism” was “performative,” that _still_ isn’t a legitimate defense of apartheid-like systems. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > But the situation is more complex than that. It isn’t really that complex. The recent advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice makes the legal situation quite clear: Isreal is illegally occupying Palestine. Multiple human rights organisations credibly accuse (backed up by decades of evidence) the state of Israel of enacting a system of apartheid. Apartheid is defined as “inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them”. I think apartheid is bad. Under international law, it is recognized as a crime against humanity. Nations are obligated to prevent and punish crimes against humanity. There is _no good defense_ for things that are crimes against humanity. This isn’t complicated. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It would be like leftists in Japan siding with Trump and MAGA, and saying anyone who didn’t agree with them was racist towards oppressed white people. More correctly, it is the state of Israel that is siding with Trump and MAGA. They are _literally allies_. Apartheid is a tool of an authoritarian state. And this is exactly what Trump and MAGA want. They _want_ apartheid. They _want_ to treat black and brown people differently. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > As for the OP, again, the best defense for the apartheid-like system is that the vast majority of Palestinians want to live in a racially and religiously pure ethnostate and they are willing to commit moral atrocities to accomplish that goal. You’ve just made an argument for suppressing citizens of Israel with an apartheid-like system. You do realize that, don’t you? When you paint with such broad strokes, it’s only fair we apply those broad strokes everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/195 "2026-08-03T02:28:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Note that this is basically the exact justification for South African apartheid, American Jim Crow and slavery, and even the Holocaust. African-Americans, black South Africans, and Polish Jews were never an existential threat to America, South Africa, or Germany. Hamas (not “Palestinians”) IS an existential threat to Israel, as they proved when they started a war and attempted to commit genocide. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/196 "2026-08-03T02:53:35Z")
Indeed, no one has ever condemned Israel for _attacking_ Hamas. [They were for originally supporting Hamas in the first place, but that is old news.] Israel has been rightly criticized for quite deliberately fucking over civilians who have nothing to do with Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/197 "2026-08-03T03:04:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > African-Americans, black South Africans, and Polish Jews were never an existential threat to America, South Africa, or Germany. Hamas (not “Palestinians”) IS an existential threat to Israel, as they proved when they started a war and attempted to commit genocide. …Palestinians _aren’t_ an existential threat to Isreal. And apartheid targets Palestinians, _not_ Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/198 "2026-08-03T03:15:55Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Indeed, no one has ever condemned Israel for _attacking_ Hamas. Go back to the original thread and you’ll see people demanding Israel agree to a ceasefire while the bodies of the 10/7 victims were still warm. > [@DPRK](#): > > Israel has been rightly criticized for quite deliberately fucking over civilians who have nothing to do with Hamas. Civilians get fucked over in war. That’s the nature of the beast. A war without civilian casualties has never happened and never will. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/199 "2026-08-03T04:07:32Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > As for the OP, again, the best defense for the apartheid-like system is that the vast majority of Palestinians want to live in a racially and religiously pure ethnostate and they are willing to commit moral atrocities to accomplish that goal. The best defense for the apartheid-like system is that the vast majority of settlers want to live in a racially and religiously pure ethnostate and are willing to overlook moral atrocities undertaken to accomplish that goal. The best defense would not assign a subjugated people collective blame for rebellions against its oppressors, nor widespread support of the same. If that’s the best you have, you may as well give up. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/200 "2026-08-03T04:21:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The best defense for the apartheid-like system is that the vast majority of settlers want to live in a racially and religiously pure ethnostate Israel is not and has never been a “religiously pure ethnostate”. 20% of Israelis are Muslim, and among the Jewish population, African and Mideastern Jews outnumber European Jews. > [@Max\_S](#): > > The best defense would not assign a subjugated people collective blame for rebellions against its oppressors, 10/7 was not a “rebellion against oppressors”. It was a _pogrom_. And there haven’t been any settlers in Gaza for 20 years now anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=11)