# What is the best defense of the apartheid-like system Israel enforces in occupied/settled/disputed territories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2026, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314 "2026-05-22T17:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/201 "2026-08-03T04:27:35Z")
Settlers clearly do not wish to live in the Israel that “is not and has never been a ‘religiously pure ethnostate’”, or they would not choose to live outside of it. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/202 "2026-08-03T04:31:09Z")
The settlers are an impediment to peace and should either return to Israel proper or agree to live under Palestinian law (which I doubt they’d be happy about), but their existence doesn’t justify 10/7 nor does it invalidate Israel’s right to self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/203 "2026-08-03T04:37:56Z")
Pogrom is not the correct term, because Jews are not a racial minority in Israel and the October 7th attack was not condoned by the authorities in Israel. Resistance against foreign rule can be categorized as a rebellion. October 7th itself is not the best defense of the apartheid-like system Israel enforces in its occupied territories, simply because the apartheid-like system pre-dates the attack and applies in other territories where Hamas has less power. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/204 "2026-08-03T04:43:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Pogrom is not the correct term, because Jews are not a racial minority in Israel and the October 7th attack was not condoned by the authorities in Israel. Neither of those are part of the essential definition of the word. > **[POGROM Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pogrom)** > > POGROM definition: an organized massacre, especially of Jews. See examples of pogrom used in a sentence. > **[Pogrom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom)** > > A pogrom\[a\] is a violent riot incited with the aim of massacring or expelling an ethnic or religious group, usually applied to attacks on Jews. The term entered the English language from Russian to describe late 19th- and early 20th-century attacks on Jews in the Russian Empire (mostly within the Pale of Settlement). Retrospectively, similar attacks against Jews which occurred in other times and places were renamed pogroms. Contemporarily, the word is also used to describe publicly sanction Sign... > [@Max\_S](#): > > Resistance against foreign rule can be categorized as a rebellion. Attacking a music festival and killing college kids and old women on farms and setting babies on fire and torturing people to death while using their own phones to livestream it on their Facebook account is not “resistance against foreign rule”. > **[A profound account of the October 7 pogrom](https://spectator.com/article/a-profound-account-of-the-october-7-pogrom/)** > > Douglas Murray has authored a book for the ages > Murray quotes one terrorist’s recorded call home to his Gazan parents from an Israeli kibbutz during the attack. “Hi Dad. Open my WhatsApp now and you will see all those killed. Look how many I killed with my own hands. Your son killed Jews.” His father responds, “may God protect you” before the terrorist exults further. “Dad, I’m talking to you from a Jewish woman’s phone. I killed her and I killed her husband. I killed ten with my own hands.” His parents reply, “Oh my son. God bless you,” with his mother adding, “I wish I was with you.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/205 "2026-08-03T04:59:40Z")
American Heritage: An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews. Britannica: pogrom, (Russian: “devastation,” or “riot”), a mob attack, either approved or condoned by authorities, against the persons and property of a religious, racial, or national minority. The term is usually applied to attacks on Jews in the Russian Empire in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Terrorism can be a form of resistance against foreign rule. In fact, it is one of the most common forms. Compare: the FLN in Algeria, the IRA in Northern Ireland, Irgun and Lehi in the British Mandate for Palestine, the Tripolitsa massacre during the Greek War of Independence, multiple massacres and kidnappings of American colonists by Native American tribes. All are described as resistance. Not all resistance is legitimate. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/206 "2026-08-03T05:05:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Compare: the FLN in Algeria, the IRA in Northern Ireland, Irgun and Lehi in the British Mandate for Palestine, the Tripolitsa massacre during the Greek War of Independence, multiple massacres and kidnappings of American colonists by Native American tribes. All are described as resistance. Not all resistance is legitimate. If it’s illegitimate, then don’t lend it credibility by calling it “resistance”. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/207 "2026-08-03T05:07:09Z")
I originally said “rebellion”. Need I clarify that not all forms of rebellion are legitimate? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/208 "2026-08-03T05:11:17Z")
Massacreing women and children is not “rebellion”. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/209 "2026-08-03T05:11:42Z")
Oh, but it can be. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/210 "2026-08-03T05:38:24Z")
According to Israel supporters, it’s just collateral damage. Even when you snipe 4-year olds. So… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/211 "2026-08-03T06:04:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Even when you snipe 4-year olds. That never happened. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/212 "2026-08-03T06:16:11Z")
Yes, it did. And two-year olds, and six-year olds… > **[Two girls shot in Gaza - BBC pieces together what happened and looks at...](https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cjelp738zd7o)** > > Layan and Mira were killed in proximity to IDF soldiers - the Israeli military says intentional harm to civilians is prohibited and their cases will be examined by the authorities. You can deny it all you want, but it’s all very well documented. The IDF deliberately targets children, there is no other explanation for the pattern of injuries doctors have recorded. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/213 "2026-08-03T06:35:53Z")
Nevertheless, a violent attack by a group under occupation does not, by itself, justify the entire system imposed on the occupied population. It’s like saying my defense for tax delinquency is that taxes are unreasonably high. The “defense” just does not excuse the charge. The best defense might be that one’s priority is to cover living expenses, and there just isn’t enough left over to pay taxes. That the taxes are unreasonably high is tangential at best. You have to connect the dots. You have said that it would be irresponsible for Israel to end military occupation immediately. That defense is weak because it invites counter-proposals to end the apartheid-like system without ending military occupation immediately, and therefore does not justify the apartheid-like system itself. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/214 "2026-08-03T06:40:11Z")
Yes, it did. And two-year olds, and six-year olds… “Children were shot on a battlefield” != “children are being deliberately targeted”. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The IDF deliberately targets children, there is no other explanation for the pattern of injuries doctors have recorded. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Survivorship-bias.svg/1280px-Survivorship-bias.svg.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Survivorship-bias.svg/1280px-Survivorship-bias.svg.png) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/215 "2026-08-03T06:41:10Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > That defense is weak because it invites counter-proposals to end the apartheid-like system without ending military occupation immediately What does “ending the apartheid-like system” look like to you? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/216 "2026-08-03T06:43:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I think the West Bank settlements are wrong and that any long-term solution is going to have to involve either requiring them to leave or telling them that after a certain date they’ll be subject to the laws of a sovereign Palestinian republic (which I hope would not treat them the way they’ve been treated, but I’m not optimistic about that). > [@MrDibble](#): > > Surely ending the thing properly means _taking those settlers away_? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/217 "2026-08-03T06:43:37Z")
~~Sharpshooters~~ Snipers _target_ people. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/218 "2026-08-03T06:44:07Z")
So removing the settlers? I agree that would be a good step. The settlers were removed from Gaza 20 years ago. Still didn’t solve the problem. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Snipers _target_ people. “People have been shot” != “they were shot by snipers”. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/219 "2026-08-03T06:45:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The settlers were removed from Gaza 20 years ago. And this thread is not about Gaza as it exists today, is it? You won’t find _settlers in Gaza_ who brutalize Palestinians while only subject to military law, and not the civil justice system. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/220 "2026-08-03T06:50:43Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > And this thread is not about Gaza as it exists today, is it? The point is that removing the settlers clearly won’t be enough to resolve the root of the problem, because they still voted in a fanatical government that went on to start a war. Once that’s done, what’s the next step? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=12)