# What is the best defense of the apartheid-like system Israel enforces in occupied/settled/disputed territories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2026, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314 "2026-05-22T17:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/221 "2026-08-03T06:52:27Z")
The root of what problem? Without settlers, you don’t have an apartheid-like system. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/222 "2026-08-03T06:53:36Z")
So we’re in agreement that “apartheid” isn’t the cause of the problems between Israel and Palestine, then. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/223 "2026-08-03T06:55:20Z")
It is a cause. Certainly an obstacle to a stable Palestinian democracy, which itself is a requirement for self-determination imposed by Israel and the United States. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/224 "2026-08-03T06:56:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It is a cause. Certainly an obstacle to a stable Palestinian democracy And yet, removing the “apartheid” did _not_ bring about a stable democracy in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/225 "2026-08-03T06:57:07Z")
Single gunshots to head or chest, often without any other injuries. Dispoprtionately so. Eyewitness accounts of children shot while standing, walking, or fleeing. Snipers. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/226 "2026-08-03T06:59:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Single gunshots to head or chest, often without any other injuries. Yes, you’re going to see dead bodies with a single shot to the chest or head, because _those are the shots most likely to be lethal_. It doesn’t prove anything about who fired the shot, or why, or whether it was aimed or they just caught a stray. This is just inverted survivorship bias. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/227 "2026-08-03T07:07:47Z")
Did I say it was _just_ bodies? This is also the pattern on _injured_, not killed, children too, as the BBC and UN [investigations](https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/report/auto-draft/a-hrc-62-crp-2.pdf) show. The IDF uses snipers. We know this. IDF soldiers[have admitted they were ordered to target civilians](https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/pdf/ProtectiveEdge.pdf). “Any person you run into, that you see with your eyes… Shoot to kill.” We know this. Denial is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/228 "2026-08-03T07:11:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is also the pattern on _injured_, not killed, children too There are injured children walking around with a single sniper wound to the head? > [@MrDibble](#): > > IDF soldiers[have admitted they were ordered to target civilians](https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/pdf/ProtectiveEdge.pdf). “Any person you run into, that you see with your eyes… Shoot to kill.” …that document is from 2014 and is specifically regarding rules of engagement in an exclusion zone where _civilians of any sort are not supposed to be_. > What were the instructions regarding [Palestinians] who return? > The instructions were to open fire. They said, “No one is supposed to be in the area in which you will be.” > During the ceasefire as well? > No, after the ceasefire. There was the first ceasefire that collapsed – I don’t remember anymore, there were lots of ceasefires. But after the first one there was that danger and we asked, “Will the civilian population return? What will the situation look like now when we go in [to the Gaza Strip] again?” And they said, “You aren’t supposed to encounter the civilian population, no one is supposed to be in the area in which you’ll be. Which means that anyone you do run into is [to be regarded as] a terrorist.” > What was the commanders’ response? > A typical officer’s response was, “It’s a complicated situation, I realize a situation might arise in which innocent people get killed, but you cannot take that risk or put your comrades at risk, you must shoot without hesitation.” The instructions are very clear. Any person you run into, that you see with your eyes – shoot to kill. You’re just being disingenuous by claiming it evidences a general order to kill children post-10/7. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/229 "2026-08-03T07:13:28Z")
I’m saying the IDF hasn’t changed. Are you alleging they somehow got _more_ solicitous of Gazan civilians after October 7th? Because i could use a good laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/230 "2026-08-03T07:15:23Z")
I’m saying you’re misrepresenting a situation where soldiers had legitimate cause to believe any person they encountered was hostile as an order to deliberately snipe at children. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/231 "2026-08-03T07:19:04Z")
Where did I say an order was given to deliberately murder children? Orders _were_ given to treat everyone as hostile (and I mean also in the current conflict, Breaking the Silence still actively collects testimonies [like this one](https://www.economist.com/interactive/1843/2026/05/29/what-i-did-in-gaza-an-israeli-soldiers-reckoning)), and the consequence is that children are sniped. You don’t have to order your snipers to specifically target children for that to be an entirely expected outcome. When you phrase it as “you don’t _have_ to shoot kids”, the “wink, wink” is already implied. And “legitimately” is in the eye of the genocidaires, there. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/232 "2026-08-03T07:19:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And yet, removing the “apartheid” did _not_ bring about a stable democracy in Gaza. Of course not. Regardless, unequal treatment of settlers and Palestinians in territories under Israeli military occupation was and still remains a cause of problems between Israel and Palestinians, a cause of Palestinian terrorism, an obstacle to a stable Palestinian democracy, and an obstacle to Palestinian self-determination. I am not making the connection between this and the any defense of the apartheid-like system Israel enforces in occupied territories. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/233 "2026-08-03T07:21:55Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > As for the OP, again, the best defense for the apartheid-like system is that the vast majority of Palestinians want to live in a racially and religiously pure ethnostate and they are willing to commit moral atrocities to accomplish that goal. > [@Max\_S](#): > > The best defense would not assign a subjugated people collective blame for rebellions against its oppressors, nor widespread support of the same. > [@Smapti](#): > > Massacreing women and children is not “rebellion”. > [@MrDibble](#): > > According to Israel supporters, it’s just collateral damage. Even when you snipe 4-year olds. > [@Smapti](#): > > … document is from 2014 and is specifically regarding rules of engagement in an exclusion zone where _civilians of any sort are not supposed to be_. … > [@Smapti](#): > > … a situation where soldiers had legitimate cause to believe any person they encountered was hostile … Would it help if I wrote, “The best defense would not assign a subjugated people collective blame for moral atrocities against its oppressors, nor widespread support of the same as part of a broader rebellion”? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/234 "2026-08-03T07:23:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Where did I say an order was given to deliberately murder children? > [@MrDibble](#): > > The IDF deliberately targets children Ahem. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Orders _were_ given to treat everyone as hostile Because they were in an exclusion zone which had been fully evacuated and where NO CIVILIANS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE. The population were under strict orders not to enter that area. Anyone entering the area is deliberately flouting orders and can be assumed to be hostile. > [@MrDibble](#): > > and the consequence is that children are sniped. The person being interviewed wasn’t even a sniper! They were a field engineer. > [@Max\_S](#): > > ~Max > **[Military exclusion zone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_exclusion_zone)** > > A military exclusion zone (MEZ) is an area in the immediate vicinity of a military action established by a country to prevent the unauthorized entry of civilian personnel/equipment for their own safety or to protect natural assets already in place in the zone. It is also established to prevent an enemy from acquiring any material which could help them. The comparable term used by the air forces is that of no-fly zone. This military-related article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by adding miss... Any unauthorized person in an MEZ is by definition _not_ an innocent civilian. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/235 "2026-08-03T07:28:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Ahem. Where did I say anything about “orders”? > [@Smapti](#): > > Any unauthorized person in an MEZ is by definition _not_ an innocent civilian. MEZs are not a recognized category that creates new targeting rights under international humanitarian law. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/236 "2026-08-03T07:33:13Z")
I edited [post #233](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/233). > [@Max\_S](#): > > Would it help if I wrote, “The best defense would not assign a subjugated people collective blame for moral atrocities against its oppressors, nor widespread support of the same as part of a broader rebellion”? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/237 "2026-08-03T07:35:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > MEZs are not a recognized category that creates new targeting rights under international humanitarian law. Hamas waived their rights under international humanitarian law on 10/7. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Where did I say anything about “orders”? Oh, so they just all spontaneously knew that they were supposed to deliberately execute children and did so on their own volition and suffered no consequences for engaging in unauthorized actions. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/238 "2026-08-03T07:38:20Z")
Okay, but even granting that Hamas waived its own combatants’ rights under international humanitarian law, for the sake of argument, I don’t see the connection to the rights of noncombatant children or the best defense of apartheid-like systems Israel enforces in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or in Gaza pre-Hamas takeover in 2006. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/239 "2026-08-03T07:40:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > “The best defense would not assign a subjugated people collective blame for moral atrocities against its oppressors, nor widespread support of the same as part of a broader rebellion”? If the Gazan people reject the actions Hamas is undertaking in their name then I encourage them to rebel against their actual oppressors and not the people trying to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/240 "2026-08-03T07:41:01Z")
The military exclusion stuff goes way beyond Hamas. There are military roadblocks around, e.g., Jericho. Whatever the official rationale, the net result is that actual residents of the area keep getting screwed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=13)