# What is the best defense of the apartheid-like system Israel enforces in occupied/settled/disputed territories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2026, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314 "2026-05-22T17:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/241 "2026-08-03T07:42:44Z")
Are you now arguing that Israel does not oppress Palestinians in the West Bank? Or did I miss your point? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/242 "2026-08-03T07:44:05Z")
It is a fallacy that the Palestinian people cannot simultaneously be against both Hamas and Israel. (In any case, how is some random person supposed to “rebel” against either of them? By joining the People’s Front of Judea? You have to remember that Israel has been against groups like the PFLP, too.) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/243 "2026-08-03T07:45:06Z")
I latched on to “actual oppressors” as implying Israel does not actually oppress the Palestinian people, even in the territories where there is an apartheid-like system. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/244 "2026-08-03T07:46:02Z")
Israel cares more about the well-being of Palestinians than Hamas does. Hamas only sees them as potential martyrs and PR tools. The West Bank wouldn’t even have electricity or running water if Israel weren’t providing it to them. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/245 "2026-08-03T07:49:52Z")
I can admit all these things, but still say the best defense would not assign Palestinians collective blame for moral atrocities against Israel, nor for widespread support of the same as part of a broader rebellion against Israel. Because Israel is actively oppressing Palestinians and it is wrong to assign collective blame to an oppressed people for rebelling against their oppressors, as opposed to individualized blame to the individuals who commit atrocities. And we have other defenses that do not do this. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/246 "2026-08-03T07:54:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I can admit all these things, but still say the best defense would not assign Palestinians collective blame for moral atrocities against Israel, nor for widespread support of the same as part of a broader rebellion against Israel. I don’t “assign collective blame” to anyone, but the fact is that “the individuals who commit atrocities” have the support of a broad base of the population and have a known history of using civilians as human shields, posing as civilians in order to commit those atrocities, and refusing to compromise in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/247 "2026-08-03T07:55:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas waived their rights under international humanitarian law on 10/7. There’s no such thing as “waiving your rights to IHL”. IHL obligations are explicitly not reciprocal , this is a central tenet of Common Article 1. And in any case, Hamas =/= Palestinian civilians and Geneva Convention IV, Article 8 directly states “Protected persons may in no circumstances renounce in part or in entirety the rights secured to them by the present Convention.” > [@Smapti](#): > > Oh, so they just all spontaneously knew that they were supposed to deliberately execute children That’s the effect that post Oct 7 desire for vengeance, fear and a lifetime of exposure to [dehumanization of Palestinians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization_of_Palestinians_in_Israeli_discourse) is going to have on them. How “spontaneous” that is is is a matter of debate. > [@Smapti](#): > > suffered no consequences for engaging in unauthorized actions Israelis can rape a prisoner in front of a camera and suffer no consequences, why would this be any different? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/248 "2026-08-03T07:57:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s no such thing as “waiving your rights to IHL”. IHL obligations are explicitly not reciprocal , this is a central tenet of Common Article 1. > > And in any case, Hamas =/= Palestinian civilians and Geneva Convention IV, Article 8 directly states “Protected persons may in no circumstances renounce in part or in entirety the rights secured to them by the present Convention.” I’ll believe Hamas is entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention when they stop trying to commit genocide against the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/249 "2026-08-03T07:59:26Z")
Surely you do not argue that the best defense of the apartheid-like system in the West Bank is to oppress the Palestinian population just because they broadly support Hamas? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/250 "2026-08-03T08:00:34Z")
I argue that there is no “apartheid-like system” in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/251 "2026-08-03T08:00:49Z")
Then I suggest this is the wrong thread. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I consider it apartheid-like, or Jim Crow-ish, or similar, but I don’t really care what phrases others use to describe these circumstances, at least for the purposes of this discussion. For this discussion, I’m curious as to the best defense of these circumstances. Why do advocates/defenders/rationalizers of the status quo think it’s okay that settlers can brutalize Palestinians while only being subject to the civil justice system, while if Palestinians do the same thing to settlers, they are subject to military law? Why is it okay that a Christian-identified tourist (like Coates) can go down streets that Palestinians who were born in the actual town cannot? I’m sure there are overtly bigoted reasons (i.e. “they’re subhuman”, “they’re all terrorists”, etc.), but those aren’t the best arguments. What are the actual best arguments? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/252 "2026-08-03T08:01:56Z")
International humanitarian law doesn’t concern itself with your “beliefs”. You made a factually incorrect statement about rights under IHL. But the rest of us will nevertheless _still_ apply IHL to Israel, even as it continues its own way more successful genocide efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/253 "2026-08-03T08:05:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > International humanitarian law doesn’t concern itself with your “beliefs”. You made a factually incorrect statement about rights under IHL. Go ahead and call the international humanitarian police on me, then. > [@MrDibble](#): > > even as it continues its own way more successful genocide efforts. The total death count in Gaza over the last three years - military AND civilian - equals about 3% of the pre-war population. At this rate, it’ll only take them another 65 years or so to accomplish what the Nazis did in the same amount of time. Some genocide. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/254 "2026-08-03T09:23:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The total death count in Gaza over the last three years - military AND civilian - equals about 3% of the pre-war population. Amazing that anyone could consider this a defense of Israeli actions in the war… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/255 "2026-08-03T09:52:33Z")
It’s 97% less than what it would be if the accusations being lobbed against Israel were true. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/256 "2026-08-03T10:14:57Z")
So it’s your opinion that it’s not genocide unless 100% of the group is killed? Does that mean the Holocaust wasn’t genocide? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/257 "2026-08-03T11:06:11Z")
It is possible that one _would_ prefer it if some inconvenient people were gone, but one does not want to ship them all off to death camps. “Subtler” methods are then used— what is the rush? It does not follow that the goal is benign. The apartheid stuff remains consistent with Israel not wanting these people as citizens, not wanting them to have an independent, prosperous state (one not aligned with Israeli interests, anyway) either, not really wanting them there at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/258 "2026-08-03T11:46:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The total death count in Gaza over the last three years - military AND civilian - equals about 3% of the pre-war population. The total death count in Israel - military AND civilian - from Oct 7 on equals about 0.02% of the population, but you’re quite happy calling _that_ a genocide attempt. Gaza is 150 times the genocide, by your own calculus of death. > [@Smapti](#): > > when they stop trying to commit genocide against the Jews. To quote some guy: “Some genocide.” > [@Smapti](#): > > Go ahead and call the international humanitarian police on me, then. Don’t make any fallacious appeals to IHL to justify genocide, then. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/259 "2026-08-03T18:44:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So it’s your opinion that it’s not genocide unless 100% of the group is killed? It requires an _attempt_. I have seen nothing to indicate that Israel’s endgame is the extermination of the Gazan people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/260 "2026-08-03T18:50:55Z")
So if their endgame is, say, no more Gazans in Gaza, then that’s not genocide (or attempted genocide) to you, since they’re not necessarily trying to kill every single one? Or if their endgame is, say, no more Gazans in 80% (or 50% or 25%) of Gaza? Looking back, if the Nazis just wanted to kill all the Jews in Germany (or even just end in “no more Jews in Germany”, meaning dead or otherwise gone), or even just Berlin, that wouldn’t have been genocide? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=14)