# What is the best defense of the apartheid-like system Israel enforces in occupied/settled/disputed territories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2026, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314 "2026-05-22T17:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/81 "2026-05-29T17:52:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Jasmine](#): > > > > Good question, so I thought I would research how many times they’ve been militarily threatened and/or attacked. > > The International Court of Justice disagrees that this is a reasonable defence of apartheid-like systems. Also, seems like a pretty crappy defence just on pragmatic grounds. _“We keep oppressing them and denying them rights and sovereignty and encroaching on their territory, and they keep attacking us. Guess we need to oppress them harder.”_ Yeah, if the point of this apartheid-like system was actually to decrease hostility and attacks, it doesn’t seem to have a great track record. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/82 "2026-05-29T17:58:04Z")
So what about the OP? What is the best justification for the treatment of Palestinian civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/83 "2026-05-29T18:07:06Z")
Well, I thought that I’ve been preaching that but, since there is confusion, I’ll state it more directly. The justification is that you do what you feel is necessary to root out and neutralize the enemy. If the “civilians” are harboring people who are attacking, destroying and killing, then the “civilians” will have to deal with the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/84 "2026-05-29T18:31:13Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The justification is that you do what you feel is necessary to root out and neutralize the enemy. Well, that certainly gets rid of all those pesky worries about not only apartheid but also potential war crimes and ethnic cleansing and genocide, doesn’t it? Other people’s rights be damned: as long as we “feel” that oppression or even indiscriminate killing is “necessary”, then that justifies it, end of story. No, I don’t consider that a good defense or justification of Israeli practices vis-a-vis the Palestinians. I agree, though, that nobody seems to have come up with any other defense or justification of them that’s any better. ETA: **One major issue with that justification is that it’s very much a two-way street**. If, for example, Israeli settlers in Palestinian territories “attack, destroy and kill” Palestinian lives and property, and Israeli civil society and the military shield the settlers from penalties for their actions, then by your reasoning, that justifies Palestinian militants in inflicting violent “consequences” on Israeli “civilians” who are “harboring” the attackers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/85 "2026-05-29T18:47:05Z")
That would appear to justify anything and everything, up to mass rape and murder, as long as they claim it’s necessary for security and to root out militants. Is that your position? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/86 "2026-05-29T18:56:59Z")
That is YOUR interpretation, so don’t assign it to me. In fact, words like “genocide” are being thrown around freely as accepted fact when, in actual fact, it’s not fact at all. I did some research. There are between 50 and 100 separate Arab nation terrorist groups in the world. I did more research. There are 2 (yes, two) recognized Israeli terrorist groups in the world, **Kahane Chai and Kach** and the **Jewish Defense League (JDL)**. Hmm … maybe we have the victims and monsters mixed up. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/87 "2026-05-29T18:59:33Z")
History shows us opression _can_ neutralize security threats long-term. Think of the Black Hills (Mount Rushmore): the Lakota’s fighting capability is nonexistent, they are totally subordinated, the situation is stable, and the threat to U.S. citizens in sacred tribal lands is virtually nonexistent. Today, we look back and say at what cost. Is the security defense valid to the exclusion of all other considerations? are we acknowledging that it only provides security to one side? are there some measures which could increase security, but are nonetheless illegitimate? The Supreme Court held that the U.S. illegally took those lands and ordered money compensation, which the Lakota tribe famously refused to accept. But more importantly, to many people who actually supported it, at the time, the “costs” of genocide and forced displacement were actually “benefits” in service of primary objectives: the gold rush, manifest destiny, etc. So history shows that oppression _can_ result in security, but I question whether it works as a freestanding defense or must always be secondary to something else, e.g. Zionism. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/88 "2026-05-29T19:13:27Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Well, I thought that I’ve been preaching that but, since there is confusion, I’ll state it more directly. The justification is that you do what you feel is necessary to root out and neutralize the enemy. If the “civilians” are harboring people who are attacking, destroying and killing, then the “civilians” will have to deal with the consequences. I think putting the word _civilians_ in scare quotes pretty much tells us all we need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/89 "2026-05-29T19:15:16Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I did some research. Try doing some thinking? A little thinking surely makes it clear that the **absolute numbers** of organizations identified as “terrorist groups” associated with Arab nations _(22 Arab League countries, total population about **450 million** _) and organizations identified as “terrorist groups” associated with Israel (_1 country, total population about **10 million** _, not counting Palestinians without rights living under Israeli control) are not a meaningful proxy for the comparative “victimhood” or “monstrousness” of any of the parties involved. Both numbers would be equally consistent with, say, a simple demographic rule of thumb estimating that you get about one terrorist group with every 5 million individuals in a population, irrespective of the victimhood or monstrousness of the population involved. Which makes any effort to infer relative morality levels from those numbers a pretty silly exercise. And again, none of what you’re arguing is a coherent justification for a systemic policy of apartheid-style subjugation and denial of rights. It’s not humane, it’s not healthy, and it’s not helping. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/90 "2026-05-29T19:17:27Z")
I’m just trying to understand your position. Is it your position that, in the name of security, Israel is justified in allowing settlers to brutalize and steal from Palestinian civilians without repercussions? Or do you believe that there are no Palestinian civilians - they are all, including women and children, enemy combatants? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/91 "2026-05-29T19:25:27Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > So history shows that oppression _can_ result in security, but I question whether it works as a freestanding defense or must always be secondary to something else, e.g. Zionism. Sure, systemic oppression (especially at the level of outright ethnic cleansing and genocide, as with Native American peoples) can ultimately eliminate a conflict. As for whether that qualifies as a valid justification of said oppression, though, I’ll quote [the words of L. Frank Baum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre) (later the author of _The Wizard of Oz_ and sequels) following the Battle of Wounded Knee: > [@](#): > > The _Pioneer_ has before declared that our only safety depends upon the total extermination of the Indians. Having wronged them for centuries, we had better, in order to protect our civilization, follow it up by one more wrong and wipe these untamed and untamable creatures from the face of the earth. In this lies future safety for our settlers and the soldiers who are under incompetent commands. Otherwise, we may expect future years to be as full of trouble with the redskins as those have been in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2026, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/92 "2026-05-29T19:41:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, systemic oppression (especially at the level of outright ethnic cleansing and genocide, as with Native American peoples) can ultimately eliminate a conflict. As for whether that qualifies as a valid justification of said oppression, though, I’ll quote [the words of L. Frank Baum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre) (later the author of _The Wizard of Oz_ and sequels) following the Battle of Wounded Knee: > > > [@](#): > > > > The _Pioneer_ has before declared that our only safety depends upon the total extermination of the Indians. Having wronged them for centuries, we had better, in order to protect our civilization, follow it up by one more wrong and wipe these untamed and untamable creatures from the face of the earth. In this lies future safety for our settlers and the soldiers who are under incompetent commands. Otherwise, we may expect future years to be as full of trouble wnith the redskins as those have been in the past. I guess the colonizers of Israel, starting with the Romans who renamed it Palestine and followed by the Arabs who took it from them (after some back and forth with Persia), fucked up by not wiping out the Jewish natives, because now their present is as full of trouble with Jews as [their past was.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar) [And that’s a connection they make, mind you, not me.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaybar_Khaybar_ya_yahud) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2026, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/93 "2026-05-30T00:20:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Oh goodie, what non-leftists will you quote? …I didn’t quote any “leftists.” The International Court of Justice is NOT a “leftist” organisation. > [@ICJ](#): > > #### What is the International Court of Justice? > > The Court is the principal judicial organ of the United Nations. It was established by the United Nations Charter, which was signed in 1945 in San Francisco (United States), and began work in 1946 in the Peace Palace, The Hague (Netherlands). > > The Court, which is composed of 15 judges, has a twofold role: first, to settle, in accordance with international law, legal disputes between States submitted to it by them and, second, to give advisory opinions on legal matters referred to it by duly authorized United Nations organs and specialized agencies. > **[INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE](https://www.icj-cij.org/frequently-asked-questions)** They are the “judicial organ” of the United Nations. Human Rights Watch is not a “leftist” organisation. > [@HRW](#): > > Human Rights Watch investigates and reports on abuses happening in all corners of the world. We are roughly 500 people of 70-plus nationalities who are country experts, lawyers, journalists, and others who work to protect the most at risk, from vulnerable minorities and civilians in wartime, to refugees and children in need. We direct our advocacy towards governments, armed groups and businesses, pushing them to change or enforce their laws, policies and practices. To ensure our independence, we refuse government funding and carefully review all donations to ensure that they are consistent with our policies, mission, and values. Amnesty International are not a “leftist” organisation. > [@Ammnesty International](#): > > ## Our mission and statute > > We have a vision of a world where everyone can **enjoy the human rights enshrined in the [Universal Declaration of Human Rights](https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/universal-declaration-of-human-rights/)** and other international human rights mechanisms. To achieve this vision, our mission is to undertake **research and action focused on preventing and ending grave abuses** of these rights. > **[About Us](https://www.amnesty.org/en/about-us/)** B’Tselem are not a “leftist” organisation. > [@B’Tselem](#): > > B’Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories strives for a future in which human rights, liberty and equality are guaranteed to all people, Palestinian and Jewish alike, living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. [https://www.btselem.org/about\_btselem](https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem) Unless you are arguing that the rule of law, human rights, liberty, equality, ending grave abuses, protecting civilians and refugees and children in need are all fundamentally “leftist” values and the centre and the right are opposed to that? Do you support the rule of law? Human rights? Liberty and equality for all? I certainly do. One would expect that we all should support these things. However, if only the “left” are allowed to oppose abuses happening in all corners of the globe, then I’ll own that, I suppose. I’m a leftist. But I don’t think that’s how it works. These are _universal_ values. And they should be shared no matter if you are from the “left”, the “centre” or the “right.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2026, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/94 "2026-05-30T00:52:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But what does that have to do with the OP? Or are you saying that if a country is attacked a bunch of times, you think they are justified in violating the human rights of civilians if they are part of a population that has been involved in some of these past attacks? It has everything to do with the OP. I’m saying that if a country is attacked a bunch of times year after year it’s _inevitable_ that they will fight back and that civilians in the attacking country will get hurt. I’d go further that if it was any _other_ country that was subjected to what Israel has been subjected to that the Palestinians would have experienced actual genocide years ago. Consistent with decisions by UN bodies, I don’t think Palestinians have been subjected to genocide so far, and that the reason they throw around such an accusation is because Hamas has an _explicit_ policy of genocide, eg “From the river to the sea.” Hamas just doesn’t have the military power to back it up. Look I understand that you want to discuss the issue on terrain favorable to you, but Palestinian intransigence, internal repression, and not coincidentally the weakness of their peace movement before October 2023 (I don’t expect anything now) have everything to do with Israel’s tough policies. That and their small geography, in terms of square kilometers. I have no idea how to get the settlers to suck it up over the short or long run. > [@Max\_S](#): > > . Take away the Zionism and I don’t think it is possible to justify West Bank settlements in the first instance. “Facts on the ground”. They preceded the creation of the Palestinian authority. They create a buffer between Israel and their right flank. * * * Yeah, the situation is bad. I’ll take the authors of the Advisory Opinion of the International Criminal Court at their word that the occupation and settlements are in violation of international law (by a vote of about 11-4). Other than jailing Nentanyahu, I don’t know what to do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2026, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/95 "2026-05-30T01:04:34Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Some people think that, if I attacked someone and ran back to my country and hid my troops and munitions under a hospital, I should be immune from attack and/or justice. …what we actually think is that most of the world collectively agreed to a legal framework that includes things like the Geneva Convention and International Humanitarian Law. And what we think is that these treaties and conventions and legal frameworks don’t just apply to the people “we don’t like.” But they should apply to everyone. Hamas committed atrocities on October the 7th. Those responsible should be held to account. And the IDF have committed atrocities both before and after October the 7th. They _also_ should be held to account. In the situation you describe, of “ran back to my country and hid my troops and munitions under a hospital”, that just _wasn’t a thing that happened here._ There are only very limited circumstances where hospitals can become a legitimate target. And Israel never provided any evidence before attacking and/or forcibly evacuating hospitals in Gaza that any of these circumstances had been met, and the evidence they showed AFTER they had occupied the hospitals was laughable. Isreal showed absolutely zero hesitation targeting hospitals. In fact, they deliberately targeted the healthcare system and brought it to its knees. The idea that knowing this, Hamas would still choose to make them “bases of operations” and hide there makes absolutely no sense at all. The reality is that the IDF were the ones that turned hospitals into military outposts. The IDF forced everyone to evacuate the Turkish Friendship Hospital. Then they occupied it and turned it into a military base. Then they destroyed it. We still don’t know _why_ they [destroyed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish-Palestinian_Friendship_Hospital) it. “The IDF started a probe into the apparent demolition of the hospital without approval.” _They_ don’t even know why they did it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2026, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/96 "2026-05-30T01:32:48Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m saying that if a country is attacked a bunch of times year after year it’s _inevitable_ that they will fight back and that civilians in the attacking country will get hurt. …so you understand why October 7th was _inevitable_ then. And that the civilians in the attacking country got hurt. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’d go further that if it was any _other_ country that was subjected to what Israel has been subjected to that the Palestinians would have experienced actual genocide years ago. What is happening in Gaza right now _is_ an actual genocide. And what about what the Palestinians have been subjected to? Does that not count? This thread is about apartheid. Apartheid is bad, yes? Don’t you think after _decades_ of apartheid, it’s _inevitable_ that they will fight back and that civilians in the attacking country will get hurt? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I don’t think Palestinians have been subjected to genocide so far, and that the reason they throw around such an accusation is because Hamas has an _explicit_ policy of genocide, eg “From the river to the sea.” “From the river to the sea” isn’t an explicitly genocidal statement. They are just _words_. If they were explicitly genocidal, then it was genocidal when used in the election manifesto of the Likud party or when Netenagu said it a few years ago. And it isn’t _just_ Palestinians “throwing the word genocide” around. It’s Human Rights Watch. Amnesty International. A broad consensus of genocide scholars, including some Israeli Holocaust scholars. The Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention. Physicians for Human Rights Israel. The leading agencies have all produced reports outlining exactly how Isreal’s conduct in Gaza meets the threshold of the genocide convention. South Africa has bought a case for genocide to the International Court of Justice. The International Court of Justice issued an interim ruling and ordered a set of provisional measures on Isreal in order to prevent genocide. The _reason_ why Palestinians are saying what they are is because Israel has been using food as a weapon. Because even months after the “ceasefire”, Palestinians in Gaza are still living in squalor, in filth, disease-ridden tent encampments. Gaza has the highest number of [child amputees in the world](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/mar/27/gaza-palestine-children-injuries). There are still bodies buried under the rubble. Thousands of innocent Palestinians are being held in Isreali torture camps. The argument that this _isn’t_ a genocide is typified by your comment here. In this case it appears to be “Hamas is _also_ genocidal; therefore, Israel is not.” That isn’t a strong argument. Not when compared with multiple independent evidence-based reports and the strength of the case currently going through the ICJ. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2026, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/97 "2026-05-30T01:37:06Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I have no idea how to get the settlers to suck it up over the short or long run. I have suggested, again, that settler misbehaviour is tolerated as a policy to weaken the Palestinians: > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Palestinian intransigence, internal repression, and not coincidentally the weakness of their peace movement before October 2023 (I don’t expect anything now) have everything to do with Israel’s tough policies. If Israel wanted to actually enforce the law, protect civilians, or even make most illegal settlers move, the mechanisms are there to do it without too much trouble. Is anyone defending the system as in asserting the status quo is somehow legal? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “The IDF started a probe into the apparent demolition of the hospital without approval.” _They_ don’t even know why they did it. Having read some accounts by soldiers fighting in Gaza, occupying civilian buildings for use as military outposts (in the process destroying most everything in the building) and levelling everything outside the building to establish a perimeter, lines of sight, etc., was completely standard, routine, and unremarkable. If you asked GI Joe why they destroyed such-and-such a building, they probably would not even understand what you meant by that question. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2026, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/98 "2026-05-30T01:40:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What is happening in Gaza right now _is_ an actual genocide. > > And what about what the Palestinians have been subjected to? Does that not count? The UN reviewed the evidence and decided that no genocide was occurring in Gaza. But that was before the ceasefire. The _subsequent_ use of food as a weapon in Gaza makes me nervous about the possibility that Israel crossed the threshold. Then they loosened up the embargo a little. I haven’t followed it up in detail since. “River to the sea”, is a clear statement of genocidal intent, which is why Hamas accused Israel of genocide before the ceasefire. * * * All that said, “Stop lobbing missiles at a country whose military is far more powerful than your militia,” doesn’t sound like a big ask. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2026, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/99 "2026-05-30T01:47:13Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m saying that if a country is attacked a bunch of times year after year it’s _inevitable_ that they will fight back and that civilians in the attacking country will get hurt. Just pausing here to note the very characteristic “Schrodinger’s nation status” frequently assigned to Palestinians in this way for rhetorical purposes. When it’s a question of Palestinians having a right to self-determination and to defend the homeland where they’ve been living for centuries against territorial encroachment, of course, we’re careful not to refer to Palestinians as constituting a “nation” or a “country”. When it’s a question of trying to justify indiscriminate slaughter and destruction on the part of Israel in retaliation against attacks by people they’re keeping in permanent subjugation, on the other hand, then Palestinians temporarily get awarded the honorary “nation” or “country” title, as in “attacking country” or “enemy country”. Yeah, if Palestinians do actually constitute a “country”, then how about Israel butts out of their country instead of constantly violating its borders and claiming the perpetual right to subject its citizens to an ongoing apartheid-like system of segregation and oppression? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > All that said, “Stop lobbing missiles at a country whose military is far more powerful than your militia,” doesn’t sound like a big ask. In other words, “Just sit down and take the perpetual oppression and territorial encroachment, or you can expect to get oppressed harder.” Sure, I get how that is frequently in many respects a _successful_ policy for the more powerful party in the conflict, but I still don’t see how it can be considered a _justifiable_ one. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > “River to the sea”, is a clear statement of genocidal intent Is it equally genocidal when it’s used by Israelis to express their determination to control all the territory of Israel/Palestine, for example, in the [1977 Likud Party founding charter](https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party)? > [@](#): > > between the Sea and the [Jordan](https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jordan) there will only be [Israeli](https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israel) sovereignty. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2026, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314/100 "2026-05-30T01:54:09Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The UN reviewed the evidence and decided that no genocide was occurring in Gaza. > [@UN](#): > > **Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip** , the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel said in a new [report](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session60/advance-version/a-hrc-60-crp-3.pdf) today. The Commission urges Israel and all States to fulfil their legal obligations under international law to end the genocide and punish those responsible for it. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/09/israel-has-committed-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/09/israel-has-committed-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds) …bolding mine. When you say “UN”, can you be a tad more specific? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The _subsequent_ use of food as a weapon in Gaza makes me nervous about the possibility that Israel crossed the threshold. > [@SA case for genocide](#): > > Israeli Minister of Defence: On 9 October 2023, Defence Minister Yoav Gallant in an Israeli Army ‘situation update’ advised that Israel was “imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB From the section “Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others.” There is a reason why there is an arrest warrant out for both Netanyahu and Gallant that states: _Allegedly responsible **for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare** and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024._ [https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu](https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu) Note the dates. NOT after the ceasefire. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I haven’t followed it up in detail since. I mean, thats fairly obvious. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > “River to the sea”, is a clear statement of genocidal intent, which is why Hamas accused Israel of genocide before the ceasefire. It’s four words. It isn’t _explicitly_ a statement of genocidal intent. Not in the way “No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel” is. Can you not see the difference? You’ve just said “river to the sea” twice now. Did you intend to commit a genocide? No, you did not. Context is _everything_. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > All that said, “Stop lobbing missiles at a country whose military is far more powerful than your militia,” doesn’t sound like a big ask. “Might is right” is never a strong moral argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-defense-of-the-apartheid-like-system-israel-enforces-in-occupied-settled-disputed-territories/1030314.md?page=6)