That would be ethnic cleansing, not genocide.
There’s nothing to indicate that’s their goal either.
Ethnic cleansing and rendering Gaza unlivable can be elements of a genocide. You are too focused on the “mass extermination of everybody” technique of genocide.
If you think Israel did not intend genocide, then you have to scrutinize the supposed evidence of genocide, not dismiss the very idea a priori because they did not set up enough death camps or something.
Because that’s what the word genocide means. The people trying to apply it to Israel have diluted the term to the point of meaninglessness. It’s a snarl word intended to shut down legitimate conversation, smear pro-Israel people as monsters, and demonize Israel.
..there is plenty of evidence for this. I provided much of that evidence in other relevant threads. I’d be happy to continue this conversation in the last thread we debated this.
But in this thread? I’d like to bring it back to apartheid. As posted earlier, this is a summary of the legal definition of apartheid.
I’d like to bring up the practice of administrative detention.
https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention
That’s bad, right? You must agree on that. It should be a fundamental right in a democracy that if you get detained, you are subject to legal proceedings and know what the evidence against you is.
This is bad on its own. But then we have this:
It’s a process that will only ever be applied to Arab Israeli citizens and Palestinians now. But this guy?
This isn’t “terror.” And he gets to walk free.
That means there will be zero Israeli citizens in administrative detention now. But over 3000 Palestinians and Arab Israeli citizens are in administrative detention. Surely that fits the definition of apartheid, right?
…no it doesn’t. I’ve shown you this multiple times in multiple threads.
When you can show me that Israel’s end goal in Gaza is to murder all 2.1 million of its inhabitants and that they are actively attempting to carry this out, I’ll agree with you that a genocide is occurring.
I will agree with you that Muslim Israeli citizens should not be treated like foreign enemy combatants.
…I don’t need to because that isn’t how genocide is defined. Everybody is entitled to have their own personal definitions of words. But the way you are using it doesn’t match the universally accepted legal definition of the word. We can’t have a conversation about this if you insist on using the word in a different way to how it is used in a legal context.
Administrative detention doesn’t only apply to “foreign enemy combatants.” It was universal even though there were only 16 detained under AD compared to over 3000 Palestinians and Arab Israeli citizens.
But now and going forward, there will be zero.
Surely that is an indication that Arab Isreali citizens are subject to apartheid?
Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was “correct” given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was “incorrect”. The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.
Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war. Only 11% of Palestinian voiced satisfaction with PA President Mahmoud Abbas.
In the west bank, 85% of Palestinians supported Hamas’s attacks. thats because they knew they wouldn’t pay the price. They knew the Paestinians in gaza would pay the price, hence why ‘only’ 52% of Palestinians in gaza supported the war. The ones in the west bank are more pro-Hamas because they aren’t the ones facing the consequences for Hamas’s actions.
The 1988 charter defines the struggle to be against the Jews and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in all of former Mandatory Palestine, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[4][5][6] The charter has been criticized for its use of antisemitic language,[7][8] which some commentators have characterized as incitement to genocide.[9][10] Hamas’s 2017 charter removed the antisemitic language and stated Hamas’s struggle is with Zionists, not Jews.[11]
Your arguments just aren’t very good. Nations support Islamic extremism when it helps them. Reagan supported Islamic extremism. When Bush invaded Iraq and Shia extremists started getting too powerful, the US started supporting sunni extremist groups. But it eventually backfires because islamic extremists can’t get along with anyone. Islamic extremists may be useful idiots to various powers at times, but they view their allies and supporters as useful idiots too.
To me at least, performative is when leftism is more about communal narcissism than actually accomplishing anything productive for humanity. Trying to say ‘I’m morally superior to everyone because of my views on XYZ’ while not doing anything that actually makes the world better is performative. Leftists used to form labor unions, they used to provide armed protection to black civil rights workers, they used to organize and fight against established power. Now they go on social media and insist they are morally superior because they support the brown skinned version of the KKK.
Of the 14 Characteristics of Fascism, Hamas has all 14 points except numbers 9 & 10. Hamas isn’t really an economic movement so they don’t care about corporate power or labor power. However if you replace corporate power with international donors, you could make the argument they hit point 9 since Hamas diverts billions in foreign aid to corrupt leadership.
…none of this supports your claim that “70% of the Palestinian public support rape, torture and murder.” That’s an incendiary claim, and you should withdraw it.
You’ve just cited the 1988 charter.
This is the 2017 charter.
You own cite states they “removed the antisemitic language and stated Hamas’s struggle is with Zionists, not Jews.”
My arguments are fine. But this?
You are all over the place. It doesn’t address anything I said in rebuttal. You are just throwing random things together. This isn’t an actual argument.
So who are you actually talking about? Because I don’t see anyone that does this. Not to any degree that matters. Name some names.
Leftists STILL do all of these things. It’s just that you seem to be objecting that leftists do these things to things that you personally support.
Who are you talking about?
And what are you talking about now, and what does this have to do with apartheid? What argument are you actually making here?
You never did reply to this, @Wesley_Clark. Do you believe Palestinian civilians deserve the violent oppression and violations of rights they currently live under?
Including children under 2yo?
The issue is Palestinians are not fighting for freedom. They are fighting for a racially and religiously pure ethnostate. Even if they got one, they’d just turn on each other over ethnic divisions and divisions within islam.
So your argument is that Palestinians are an inherently savage people that can never be trusted or made peace with, and must be crushed? And do you believe that any Palestinians who state that all they want is peace and freedom to live their lives are lying?
@Wesley_Clark Palestinians are human beings, much like yourself, and they are suffering quite greatly (if not genocide, then pretty close to one that it carries that label).
Dismissing these immense sufferings (comparable to genocide) and then justifying Palestinians’ horrible conditions as deserving due to them having a blanket horrible group nature, is to nakedly dehumanise them; dehumanise them for the purpose to make their death, or horrible daily conditions, as acceptable.
A lot of Germans died in WW2. I don’t want kids to die, but I would blame those children’s parents who voted for the Nazis and who overwhelmingly supported the invasion of Poland more than I would blame the US or UK bombers who reacted to the democratic election of the Nazis and who supported the invasion of Poland that started WW2.
People keep looking for ways to absolve the Palestinian people of all responsibility for this. I don’t like this situation either, but I place the blame for WW2 on the people who elected and supported the Nazis. I don’t blame the UK and US for running bombing campaigns over Germany, or label it genocide because 10% of Germany’s population died.
There is no easy answer to this situation. The Palestinian people, as a majority, will not be happy until they’ve committed genocide against the Jews and Zionists and created a racially and religiously pure ethnostate. Even if they got one, they’d just turn on each other the way the citizens in Lebanon and Syria are constantly at civil war.
The settlements in the west bank are a massive mistake, and Netanyahu is a criminal. That all needs to be dealt with. But I don’t see any real solution to this issue.
If we were talking about nazi children being killed I would indeed be concerned, because I don’t make excuses for killing kids. I’d hope we would be doing all we can to reduce those deaths and prosecute soldiers who were engaging in war crimes. And yes I think the allies did commit some war crimes during WWII, and I don’t think that fighting as great a threat as the Nazis, justifies those crimes.
What I certainly wouldn’t do, if someone had asked me about German civilian deaths, is immediately do a “whatabout” or “shit happens” (bypassing any opportunity to show some humanity), to saying Hey, whatabout the French civilians killed in the 100 years war?
Germans in WWII supported invasion of Poland thus you blame WWII deaths on the German people. Like-so, Palestinians are also to blame for their genocide-like conditions as they are genocide supporters themselves. Also you add that:
- the Palestinian people will never be happy (until they genocide all Jews/Zionists)
- if genocide is done, they will still never be happy and they will just kill each other due to their nature (like those in Lebanon and Syria who have the same nature)
What do you think is a Palestinian? Do you think it’s a politics? A religion? I mean, you do understand that they are people, right? Shared history and/or ancestry. That’s all.
You make entire whole (and debasing) claims of their nature. You then use these claims to dismiss their need for humane existential conditions, the very same ones you enjoy, I enjoy. Ones that CRIMINALS THEMSELVES deserve. People who commit crime should NEVER be put in these conditions, that you say the Palestinians deserve.
I mean, you do even think that a Palestinian CAN be wronged? Do you think this is possible? Does your world view even allow for this possibility?
War is hell and there need to be rules and accountability on all sides. I agree. War should be the last resort and when it happens there needs to be large amounts of transparency and accountability to ensure only military targets are targeted and damage to civilians and infrastructure is kept to a minimum.
Syria is mired in civil war. Lebanon is mired in civil war. Even if the Palestinians could genocide the zionists and Jews, and take over the entire territory, they’d just end up mired in civil war after. Fatah vs Hamas. Hamas vs more extreme Sunni Islamist groups.
The Palestinian people can be mistreated, just like the German people were badly mistreated by the USSR in WW2. Palestinians themselves are sunni Arabs, and the concept of Palestine is a geographic term. There need to be rules governing war, and the rules need to be implemented evenly.
What is your solution to the issue? Gaza needs to be governed by a government that makes sure international aid goes to the people and is not diverted, and that is disarmed so it can’t declare war on Israel. how do you propose that be accomplished?
Right, so do you have any concerns about what Israel / the IDF is doing, given all the reports of war crimes, and the findings of numerous human rights and human health agencises and journalists, data and footage of war crimes?
And are you OK will all the expansionism, which seems to have little to do with keeping anyone safe?
There should be independent investigations and accountability. Also journalists (who aren’t secretly working with Hamas) need to be protected.
The issue is this is a very messy urban war situation and Hamas intentionally uses journalists, ambulances, schools, hospitals, refugee camps, etc to store weapons, transport soldiers, fire rockets. Its not an easy situation where people can feel intense moral outrage about a simplistic black and white situation.