# What is the best fought battle of all time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525 "2019-07-24T02:07:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/42 "2019-07-26T03:18:27Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > I haven’t delved deeply into military history, so this may be a naive question. Would any of the battles in the North African Campaign be considered well fought on both sides? > > My impression has always been that the deciding factor was resupply. The British could and the Germans couldn’t (couldn’t quite meet what was required to keep their tank strength on par with the British). The Campaign always seemed to me to be back and forth, with learning curves early on on both sides. The Axis started with grossly incompetent leaders there, with 3rd class troops. The Allies had moderately incompetent leaders. Then there was Rommel, likely the best General of WW2. Facing him was Montgomery, not that good but better than the previous ones. ---
**Author:** ![Rayks\_Marcial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@Rayks\_Marcial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayks_Marcial)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/43 "2019-07-26T06:02:49Z")
If I were to qualify the OP question as bitter fighting by both sides on a massive scale; influenced by things like harsh winter conditions, limitations on equipment for the type of fighting that ensued, over-stretched logistics, and a general hatred for one another; it has to be the Battle of Stalingrad. And the kill ratio wasn’t that big. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/44 "2019-07-26T14:26:25Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > I haven’t delved deeply into military history, so this may be a naive question. Would any of the battles in the North African Campaign be considered well fought on both sides? > > My impression has always been that the deciding factor was resupply. The British could and the Germans couldn’t (couldn’t quite meet what was required to keep their tank strength on par with the British). The Campaign always seemed to me to be back and forth, with learning curves early on on both sides. The campaign perhaps, but I wouldn’t nominate any individual battle. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/45 "2019-07-26T14:36:14Z")
> [@Rayks\_Marcial](#): > > If I were to qualify the OP question as bitter fighting by both sides on a massive scale; influenced by things like harsh winter conditions, limitations on equipment for the type of fighting that ensued, over-stretched logistics, and a general hatred for one another; it has to be the Battle of Stalingrad. And the kill ratio wasn’t that big. The OP stipulates a battle in which neither side committed major errors, though. It was a big blunder for the Germans to have not retreated in Stalingrad and foolishly rely on the Luftwaffe for resupply into the city, a task which the Luftwaffe was not remotely capable of. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/46 "2019-07-26T15:03:27Z")
Rayks, I’d go with Isandlwana. It was a clash of two, very different, traditional styles of warfare. However I’d also list the Battle of Pearl Harbor and the 911 Battle of the WTC as examples of the best planned and best executed attacks of all time. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/47 "2019-07-26T15:05:32Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > 9/11 Battle of the WTC :dubious: 😛 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/48 "2019-07-26T15:11:32Z")
> [@Rayks\_Marcial](#): > > If I were to qualify the OP question as bitter fighting by both sides on a massive scale; influenced by things like harsh winter conditions, limitations on equipment for the type of fighting that ensued, over-stretched logistics, and a general hatred for one another; it has to be the Battle of Stalingrad. And the kill ratio wasn’t that big. God, no. Stalingrad was a clusterfuck by both sides, primarily because the place was named after Stalin. The Germans had no specific reason to capture the city, just block the Volga river traffic. Hitler specifically added the city to the list for propaganda reasons. Similarly, the Russians defended it tooth and nail, specifically because of the same propaganda reasons. Neither side had any real reasons to fight in Stalingrad, and certainly not with that level of intensity. The only outstanding part of the whole thing was Operation Uranus, where the Soviets encircled the German Sixth Army through a surprise mobile attack. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/49 "2019-07-26T15:15:48Z")
Velocity, Oops - thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/50 "2019-07-26T15:32:23Z")
The question posed by the OP is: “What is the best fought battle of all time?” I’d say that Pearl Harbor, 9/11 and Isandlwana were perhaps the ‘all time’ best fought. What they have in common is that the attackers: had no supply lines to support; did not take and hold territory and had no follow on strategy. They were isolated battles in which the attackers had total success. ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/51 "2019-07-26T15:55:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And yet has there ever been a battle where both sides did everything right and were reasonably matched? Or a battle that comes close? My proposal would be [The Battle of Hampton Roads](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hampton_Roads). The USS Monitor and CSS Virginia meet in open combat in the first battle of ironclad ships. Neither side made any significant errors, the two ships pounded away at each other for most of the day, essentially coming to a draw – though the Monitor did prevent the Virginia from doing further damage to the Union fleet, which can be viewed as a victory. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/52 "2019-07-26T19:03:03Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Rayks, > > I’d go with Isandlwana. It was a clash of two, very different, traditional styles of warfare. > > . The British committed several glaring errors there, so it doesnt qualify. The Zulu were nigh perfect, true. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/53 "2019-07-26T19:04:34Z")
> [@2nd\_Law](#): > > My proposal would be [The Battle of Hampton Roads](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hampton_Roads). > > The USS Monitor and CSS Virginia meet in open combat in the first battle of ironclad ships. Neither side made any significant errors, the two ships pounded away at each other for most of the day, essentially coming to a draw – though the Monitor did prevent the Virginia from doing further damage to the Union fleet, which can be viewed as a victory. The Monitor didnt use full charges on it’s guns, if it had done so, the Merrimac would have been sunk. ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/54 "2019-07-27T04:08:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Monitor didnt use full charges on it’s guns, if it had done so, the Merrimac would have been sunk. From what I’ve read, the Monitor was using the standard charges of 15 pounds of powder recommended by Dahlgren, the guns’ designer, though it was determined later that they could have used charges up to 30 pounds, which might well have turned the Virginia into swiss cheese. But considering what happened in the [Peacemaker accident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Princeton_(1843)#1844_Peacemaker_accident), it’s understandable that overcharging an iron cannon would be a risk that Dahlgren would be leery of taking. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/55 "2019-07-28T15:13:37Z")
A good engineer rates his product at considerably less than its ultimate fail point, sometimes 50% less. See: Scottie on Star Trek. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/56 "2019-07-28T15:40:15Z")
Agincourt was pretty bad, but the absolute _worst_ has to be the Third Battle of the Ypres Salient, aka Passchendaele, during the Great War. The British shelled impregnable reinforced German trenches for an entire week, which did nothing but turn No Man’s Land into a rained-out mud pit. Then the Tommies reiterated the Gen. Haig Offensive Special, which involved walking blindly into Boche machine gun fire. In addition to the usual senseless butchery, thousands of British soldiers drowned in the mire. ---
**Author:** ![Rayks\_Marcial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@Rayks\_Marcial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayks_Marcial)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/57 "2019-07-29T02:20:10Z")
Replies to the replies regarding Stalingrad: It doesn’t matter how stupid the initial strategy or prescriptive commands were at the start. Von Manstein did order von Paulus to stand. It comes down to the fighting that ensued. A 350,000-strong German force was tasked to take Stalingrad, while a similar soviet force was ordered to defend it. The result: 240,000 Germans killed (counting the 6th Army only) while the 90,000 that surrendered died soon after. The soviets had 600,000 casualties with half them possibly killed. The civilian population of close to a million? I’m assuming most of them managed to flee the Germans. Otherwise, most are likely to have died as only 20,000 civilians were still alive inside the city when it was finally cleared. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/58 "2019-07-29T07:40:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Random Q: Is this the battle that Tom Clancy writes about so vividly in the prologue to \*The Sum of All Fears? \* IMHO, still some of the best 4-6 page of writing Clancy has ever penned. I think Clancy was describing the Battle of teh Golan as a whole. The Valley of Tears was the left (northern) Israeli flank, which held; in the right flank, the Syrians broke through, but the remains of the Israeli forces fought a delaying battle and slowed them down enough for reinforcements to arrive. Incidentally, the first reinforcements to arrive was a brigade of reservists - civilians, three days earlier - in upgraded WW2-era M4 Shermans. They were in such a hurry to get there that they hadn’t had time to fuel up all the tanks, so they had to stop at a civilian gas station at the entrance to the Golan and fill up. The colonel ended up paying for it all with his personal credit card. I don’t know if he was reimbursed. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525/59 "2019-07-29T08:42:54Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Agincourt was pretty bad, but the absolute _worst_ has to be the Third Battle of the Ypres Salient, aka Passchendaele, during the Great War. > > The British shelled impregnable reinforced German trenches for an entire week, which did nothing but turn No Man’s Land into a rained-out mud pit. Then the Tommies reiterated the Gen. Haig Offensive Special, which involved walking blindly into Boche machine gun fire. > > In addition to the usual senseless butchery, thousands of British soldiers drowned in the mire. **Melchett** : Now, Field Marshal Haig has formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the field. **Blackadder** : Would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy, sir? **Darling** : How can you \*possibly \*know that, Blackadder? It’s classified information ! **Blackadder** : It’s the same plan that we used last time, and the seventeen times before that. **Melchett** : E-E-Exactly! And that is what so brilliant about it! We will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they’ll expect us to do this time! There is, however, one small problem. **Blackadder** : That everyone always gets slaughtered the first ten seconds. **Melchett** : That’s right! And Field Marshal Haig is worried that this may be depressing the men a tadge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-fought-battle-of-all-time/837525.md?page=2)