# What is the best measurement for which countries are better off than which others? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090 "2009-08-28T22:06:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/1 "2009-08-28T22:06:55Z")
Inspired by [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=529737) Let us assume for purposes of this discussion that “better off” is not based on anything indefinable, cultural or spiritual, but is based on the truism, “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick.” Possibilities: [Gross Domestic Product](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_Domestic_Product) ([List of countries by GDP;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)) [List of countries by GDP per capita](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita)) [Human Development Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index) [Happy Planet Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index) (no, really) [Index of Sustainable Economic Welfare](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISEW) [Genuine Progress Indicator](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genuine_Progress_Indicator) [Satisfaction with Life Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index) [Legatum Prosperity Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legatum_Prosperity_Index) [Quality-of-Life Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index) [Life Quality Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Quality_Index) [Misery Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misery_index) [Income equality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality) (various measures, including the [Gini coefficient](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient)) Or something else? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/2 "2009-08-28T22:18:25Z")
[Median Household Income](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income) ---
**Author:** ![Anomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@Anomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomie)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/3 "2009-08-29T04:20:04Z")
FWIW I would go with one of the indexes rather than a purely economic measure. The UN’s Human Development Index The Legatum Prosperity Index The Economist’s Quality-of-Life Index From your Wiki links, these three seem to correlate pretty well, and conform to my subjective opinion. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/4 "2009-08-29T05:23:10Z")
I’ll go for the Human Development Index. [http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/891](http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/891) > [@](#): > > Goodbye to short lives in large families > > The point of this comparison of demographic statistics is that social indicators often provide a clearer view than economic indicators of important aspects of economic development. Moreover, several social indicators of health and education – fertility, life expectancy, literacy, and such – are readily available for most countries and in some cases reach farther back in time than many economic statistics. Fertility matters because most families with many children cannot afford to send them all to school and empower them to make the most of their lives. Families with fewer children – say, two or three – have a better shot at being able to offer a good education to every child, thus opening doors and windows that otherwise might remain shut. Reducing family size, therefore, is one of the keys to more and better education and higher standards of life. As Hans Rosling has pointed out very vividly, short lives in large families are no longer a common denominator in developing countries.[2] Hans Rosling BTW is the statistician that got a bit famous after his presentation at TED, his demonstrations challenge many preconceptions: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hVimVzgtD6w/hqdefault.jpg "The best stats you've ever seen | Hans Rosling") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w) [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YpKbO6O3O3M/hqdefault.jpg "New insights on poverty | Hans Rosling") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpKbO6O3O3M) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/5 "2009-08-29T14:25:05Z")
I’m going to go out on a crazylimb here and say that you are not going to find a single accurate “measurement” for what country’s better than another, even limiting your scope to material wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/6 "2009-08-29T19:07:46Z")
I’d go with the satisfaction with life index. GDP tells us nothing about how happy the citizens are with their lives. I contend that at a certain point it makes us less happy as a people and not more. To paraphrase Fight Club, we work long hours at jobs we hate so we can buy shit that we don’t need. 😃 One of the greatest frauds perpetuated on humanity is the consumer culture. Of my favorite books on this topic is: [The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less](http://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/0060005696/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251571834&sr=8-1)(Barry Swartz). > [@Amazon](#): > > Psychology professor Schwartz provides ample evidence that we are faced with far too many choices on a daily basis, providing an illusion of a multitude of options when few honestly different ones actually exist. The conclusions Schwartz draws will be familiar to anyone who has flipped through 900 eerily similar channels of cable television only to find that nothing good is on. Whether choosing a health-care plan, choosing a college class or even buying a pair of jeans, Schwartz, drawing extensively on his own work in the social sciences, shows that a bewildering array of choices floods our exhausted brains, ultimately restricting instead of freeing us. We normally assume in America that more options (“easy fit” or “relaxed fit”?) will make us happier, but Schwartz shows the opposite is true, arguing that having all these choices actually goes so far as to erode our psychological well-being. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/7 "2009-08-29T19:13:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m going to go out on a crazylimb here and say that you are not going to find a single accurate “measurement” for what country’s better than another, even limiting your scope to material wealth. I would certainly agree with that. I have lived in several different countries; travelled to many more; and I could not say I find one country better than any other in every respect. Each country has its advantages and disadavantages. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/8 "2009-08-29T20:20:59Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > One of the greatest frauds perpetuated on humanity is the consumer culture. Without consumer culture, would we be sitting here at our privately-owned PCs posting messages via our monthly-fee Internet links, and (to paraphrase Bertrand Russell’s remarks on the dying art of general conversation) exercising our highest faculties for an entirely evanascent purpose? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/9 "2009-08-29T20:22:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m going to go out on a crazylimb here and say that you are not going to find a single accurate “measurement” for what country’s better . . . Better- **off,** not better. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/10 "2009-08-29T20:28:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Without consumer culture, would we be sitting here at our privately-owned PCs posting messages via our monthly-fee Internet links, and (to paraphrase Bertrand Russell’s remarks on the dying art of general conversation) exercising our highest faculties for an entirely evanascent purpose? It’s not an unambiguous evil, I’m not saying we should all become like the Amish. I’m an advocate of [enoughism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoughism): The theory that there is a point where consumers possess everything they need, and by buying more it actually makes their life worse off. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/11 "2009-08-29T21:07:28Z")
Something else. Instead of fancy measurements, let the people decide what they think is best. People vote with their feet. The countries that rank the highest of where people from the rest of the world wish to immigrate to are better of. The countries that are the largest source of where people chose to emigrate from are the worst shitholes. Both in relation to something like population size. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/12 "2009-08-30T00:14:31Z")
I tend to think along lines of Infant mortality, maternal mortality, literacy, longevity, incarceration rates, felony rates, execution rates, and other such obvious factors that limit your enjoyment of life. Sadly, The US doesn’t lead in any of those statistics. Tris ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/13 "2009-08-30T00:24:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Better- **off,** not better. Doesn’t matter which term you use, I stand by my statement. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/14 "2009-08-30T00:24:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Something else. Instead of fancy measurements, let the people decide what they think is best. People vote with their feet. The countries that rank the highest of where people from the rest of the world wish to immigrate to are better of. The countries that are the largest source of where people chose to emigrate from are the worst shitholes. Both in relation to something like population size. That’s pretty meaningless outside areas of gross difference. There is clearly no right or perhaps even best measure. It would seem to me one has to take a hypothesis of some preferred result - state it clearly, and then use a combination of the indices cited to try to objectively measure. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/15 "2009-08-30T01:51:22Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Something else. Instead of fancy measurements, let the people decide what they think is best. People vote with their feet. The countries that rank the highest of where people from the rest of the world wish to immigrate to are better of. The countries that are the largest source of where people chose to emigrate from are the worst shitholes. Both in relation to something like population size. It’s not a perfect measure, because many countries restrict the number of immigrants they let in, at least from certain countries. Also, I think there are still some countries that restrict the number of emigrants they let out. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/16 "2009-09-15T23:42:28Z")
[Interesting development!](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/473146/sarkozy_wants_g_20_to_get_beyond_cult_of_the_market) > [@](#): > > When the G-20 meets in Pittsburgh next week, French President Sarkozy will urge world leaders to make two moves – one immediate and one long-term – that have the potential to temper capitalism’s worst abuses and reassert human values at the national and international levels. > > Sarkozy’s aides say he will walk out of the summit of presidents and prime ministers from the world’s most developed countries if the leaders fail to endorse a plan to curb bonuses for bankers. > > That’s the immediate demand. And it is an important one, as it could put the G-20 in the unusual position of trying to tame – rather than cheer on – the banksters and corporate CEOS that have so unsettled the global economy. > > But even more important will be the French president’s push to “revolutionize” international definitions of development, progress and achievement. > > In recent decades, those measures have pretty much begun and ended with the bottom-line details of economic growth and wealth accumulation. > > But Sarkozy says he wants to use the G-20 gathering as the launching point for a “fight” against what he describes as the “cult of figures” and the “cult of the market.” > > “A great revolution is waiting for us. For years, people said that finance was a formidable creator of wealth, only to discover one day that it accumulated so many risks that the world almost plunged into chaos,” argues the French leader. “The crisis doesn’t only make us free to imagine other models, another future, another world. It obliges us to do so.” > > Sarkozy’s “revolution” would still use measures of economic growth and contraction in the analysis of a nation’s success. But the definition would be expanded beyond traditional gross domestic product (GDP) models to include measures of well-being and what Sarkozy describes as “the politics of civilization.” These include environmental sustainability, the quality of public services and the amount of time citizens of a country have to meet family responsibilities – which the French leader values as “personal services provided within a family circle.” I thought Sarkozy was supposed to be a right-winger, or something . . . ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/17 "2009-09-16T00:16:48Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Something else. Instead of fancy measurements, let the people decide what they think is best. People vote with their feet. The countries that rank the highest of where people from the rest of the world wish to immigrate to are better of. The countries that are the largest source of where people chose to emigrate from are the worst shitholes. Both in relation to something like population size. Yes. Net immigration, though the problem is that is distorted by migration policies, and illegal migration is (for instance) easier from Mexico to the United States than from Indonesia to Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/18 "2009-09-17T14:39:31Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > I tend to think along lines of Infant mortality, maternal mortality, literacy, longevity, incarceration rates, felony rates, execution rates, and other such obvious factors that limit your enjoyment of life. > > Sadly, The US doesn’t lead in any of those statistics. Why is it sad that the US doesn’t lead in any of those statistics? _Someone’s_ gotta lead in any given statistic; is is sad for everyone who doesn’t? I’d say that above a certain level, it’s fine. Just because somewhere else has a higher statistical score in some area than, say, Iceland, doesn’t mean that it’s sad that Iceland doesn’t lead. Iceland’s score may still be perfectly within the the scope of “pretty darn good and perfectly acceptable”. ---
**Author:** ![Neofio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/82dd89/32.png) [@Neofio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neofio)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/19 "2009-09-18T08:15:15Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Something else. Instead of fancy measurements, let the people decide what they think is best. People vote with their feet. The countries that rank the highest of where people from the rest of the world wish to immigrate to are better of. The countries that are the largest source of where people chose to emigrate from are the worst shitholes. Both in relation to something like population size. Pretty meaningless. Some countries will dominate public perception because they dominate international focus. Or, if people in some third-world shithole would want to immigrate _anywhere_, they’d say they would want to go to the US, because that’s all they know from movies and TV. I’ve had discussions with such people claiming the US had free universal healthcare, for Og’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090/20 "2009-09-19T21:39:15Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Yes. Net immigration, though the problem is that is distorted by migration policies, and illegal migration is (for instance) easier from Mexico to the United States than from Indonesia to Australia. Because you don’t have to cross any water wider than the Rio Grande to get from Mexico to the U.S., or because Australian immigration laws are more strictly enforced? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-best-measurement-for-which-countries-are-better-off-than-which-others/508090.md?page=2)