# What is the case against "chain immigration"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303 "2018-01-23T16:21:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/61 "2018-01-25T16:51:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s exactly what we want. The best and brightest. Not millions of low wage laborers. Sure, many of those low wage laborers will go on to have kids who accomplish great things. You know who has kids who accomplish great things more? Skilled workers. Sounds like an argument from the deniers of Shakespeare as being capable of doing the works he did. Skills that are not quite effective in other countries does not forbid the sons or daughters to become successful. > **[Syria's least-known but most famous migrant is the father of Apple's Steve Jobs](https://www.macworld.com/article/671843/who-is-steve-jobs-syrian-immigrant-father-abdul-fattah-jandali.html)** > > The Syrian crisis has highlighted the fact that the biological father of Apple's Steve Jobs was himself a Syrian political refugee > [@](#): > > On Twitter this fact has now gone viral, starting via a tweet by David Galbraith, and further exposed by the BBC World Service’s Outside Source programme. It remains a powerful statement, especially following the ISIS atrocities in Syria, Iraq, Egypt and now with Donald Trump’s indefinite ban of Syrian refugees. > > While some people are horrified at the numbers fleeing Syria, and worry about the consequences of other countries taking on millions of refugees, many have pointed out that previous Syrian migrants have boosted the West’s culture, business and technology – most notably the biological father of Steve Jobs – Abdul Fattah Jandali, who is still alive (aged 85) and living in Nevada. FWIW he was a lawyer, his father in turn was right in telling him that there are too many of them. 🙂 > [@adaher](#): > > I agree that those who want low levels of immigration are wrong. But I think that 600K or so per year is a fine number. The bulk of those should be people with skills. Unfortunately, the current people executing the law are bound to ignore skills that are also beneficial to all. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/62 "2018-01-25T16:53:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They are not, but there are lower numbers of them in the US due to geography. Crossing the Rio Grande is a lot easier than crossing the Pacific. If we’re going to let Latin Americans enter and stay even though they came illegally, we really should make an effort to balance that by importing Chinese and Indian poor people. Bound to be an unfunded mandate for sure, not worthy of serious consideration really. And so it becomes your red herring about Hispanics opposing that in the end, that deserves a response like “and if my grandmother had wheels she would be a bicycle”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/63 "2018-01-25T16:56:53Z")
And b) that’s the last thing you’d want to see. Latinos aren’t any more or less accepting of foreigners than whites are. Mass Asian immigration would be met with hostility and resentment by the Latino community as well as the white nativist community. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/64 "2018-01-25T17:04:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True, but there’s no excuse for gang executions within the US. And the immigrant community should be up in arms wanting those not allowed to be here to be deported. And in fairness, many immigrants DO want illegals kicked out. But let’s not play games here, the vast majority of illegals are here for better jobs, and living in dangerous neighborhoods is a price they are willing to pay for that. I am also waiting for any data that shows that Latin and Hispanic immigrants are some how less successful over time. But the quota system is biased against them due to biases that are cultural based. I should point out that while Mexico is now a top producer of educated engineers, more than Canada, Germany or even Brazil. But that immigration quotas restrict our ability to recruit those valuable assets due to assumptions created through our lack of a temporary worker program while having industries like farming that would simply not exist in the US without “illegal” immigration. Many of the issues surrounding the USs “illegal” immigration problem stem from biases that ignore the realities of our economy and shift the blame from OURSELVES and place that on the individuals who do come due to the economic model we produced. Crops rot, and family farms are lost when enforcement ignores the fact that we refuse to admit that we need migrant labor and then we double down by ignoring the highly skilled workers we could encourage to immigrate because they are placed in the same category. Our own protectionist policies created the market and the problem, and our economy will not function without that unofficial channel for labor and if we cut off our nose to spite our face by ignoring the fact that we created that market we also lose a chance to tap into a valuable source of STEM educated workers. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/65 "2018-01-25T17:06:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Those two chain migration grandparents had grandchildren that became 3 doctors, 2 lawyers, 2 engineers and 4 small business owners. Your family apparently played a good game and beat the system, as t’were. Way to go! So how do you feel about a family heritage based on [this group of game players?](https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-5684.html) Oh and BTW, congratulations for their big contribution to the population explosion, as well! Catholics, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/66 "2018-01-25T17:09:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And b) that’s the last thing you’d want to see. Latinos aren’t any more or less accepting of foreigners than whites are. Mass Asian immigration would be met with hostility and resentment by the Latino community as well as the white nativist community. So you admit it is driven by bigotry? Shouldn’t we work to raise above those self defeating assumptions rather than use actions of others ignorance to justify our own? The entire reason immigration restrictions were put into place in the first half of the 1900’s was to stem the tide of Italian, Finnish and Irish immigrants. Looking at the benefits and the full integration of those populations how can we justify continuing policies that were directly created due to what ended up to be invalid concerns about the destruction of the American way of life? It appears that the same exact flawed reasoning is applying to the latest pool of immigrants with no real evidence that the flawed arguments of the mid 1920’s are any more valid today. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/67 "2018-01-25T17:12:09Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Your family apparently played a good game and beat the system, as t’were. Way to go! > > So how do you feel about a family heritage based on [this group of game players?](https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-5684.html) > > Oh and BTW, congratulations for their big contribution to the population explosion, as well! > > Catholics, no doubt. [Growth of U.S. Population Is at Slowest Pace Since 1937](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/22/us/usa-population-growth.html) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/68 "2018-01-25T17:16:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I am also waiting for any data that shows that Latin and Hispanic immigrants are some how less successful over time. But the quota system is biased against them due to biases that are cultural based. The quota system is not biased against them. Latinos make up a small percentage of the world population. They do not have more rights to immigrate here than peoples in the Old World. > [@](#): > > I should point out that while Mexico is now a top producer of educated engineers, more than Canada, Germany or even Brazil. But that immigration quotas restrict our ability to recruit those valuable assets due to assumptions created through our lack of a temporary worker program while having industries like farming that would simply not exist in the US without “illegal” immigration. If we change to a more skill based system that allows us to recruit skilled immigrants from anywhere we won’t have that problem. As for agriculture, I don’t see European agriculture reliant on illegal labor. Immigrant labor, sure, but immigrant labor paid and recruited according to EU and national regulations. > [@](#): > > Our own protectionist policies created the market and the problem, and our economy will not function without that unofficial channel for labor and if we cut off our nose to spite our face by ignoring the fact that we created that market we also lose a chance to tap into a valuable source of STEM educated workers. I think we all agree we need immigration reform. But no one should support a system that is unenforced and where our national interests are irrelevant. I keep on hearing that there are jobs Americans won’t do, yet I’m not so old that I don’t remember Americans working jobs when I was a kid that are unavailable to them now. I remember American cab drivers, and American hotel maids, and American landscapers. It’s true that agriculture work has long been primarily dependent on migrant labor, but urban and suburban low skill work was done by mostly American labor not too long ago, and now is almost all done by foreign labor. Even the factories are now being staffed primarily with immigrant labor. It’s not that Americans don’t want those jobs, it’s that companies don’t want to raise wages. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/69 "2018-01-25T17:18:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Don’t see that Chinese immigrants or Indian ones are excluded from family unification. I suppose I am diverging into broader immigration issues. I was referring to illegal immigration. Why shouldn’t we try harder to stop it so we can create an environment where more legal immigration becomes possible? 20 MILLION people participate in the immigration lottery every year. > [@](#): > > Because, as it was pointed before, nowadays a lot of families do need to move family members from dangerous countries or areas. So illegal immigrants should be applying for asylum? Or are you saying that Mexico is generally a dangerous country from which people are fleeing? > [@](#): > > Until Trump is out of office, then yes, we should find reasonable people. So you want to wait 3 more years before we get anything done on immigration? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/70 "2018-01-25T17:18:56Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So you admit it is driven by bigotry? Shouldn’t we work to raise above those self defeating assumptions rather than use actions of others ignorance to justify our own? > The entire reason immigration restrictions were put into place in the first half of the 1900’s was to stem the tide of Italian, Finnish and Irish immigrants. Looking at the benefits and the full integration of those populations how can we justify continuing policies that were directly created due to what ended up to be invalid concerns about the destruction of the American way of life? It appears that the same exact flawed reasoning is applying to the latest pool of immigrants with no real evidence that the flawed arguments of the mid 1920’s are any more valid today. If you’re arguing for no restrictions I can talk about that. I don’t know that it’s the best policy, but I will say it’s preferable to what we have now. What we have now is a system essentially biased towards Latino immigration, when we should be getting people proportionately from all over the world. At the very least, an open borders policy would get us more diversity and less ethnic concentration in enclaves. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/71 "2018-01-25T17:22:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > [Growth of U.S. Population Is at Slowest Pace Since 1937](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/22/us/usa-population-growth.html) Next you will attribute this to recent Catholic reforms, right? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/72 "2018-01-25T17:23:08Z")
Lets put this in context, Previous to the 1920’s the only restrictions were really targeted at Asian populations, but they also tried to apply the Chinese Exclusion act against Finnish people, claiming that they were not white. The Federal government lost a court case where they tried to deny Citizenship to a group of Finnish people in 1908. In 1909 Senator Henry Cabot Lodge proposed limitations on immigration by Italian, Finnish and other non-Anglo Saxon Europeans. He had been publicly spreading xenophobic fears of foreign radicals migrating to undermine American values for about 20 years at that time. They claimed that they were trying to protect the _American identity_ by favoring native-born Americans over Jews, Southern Europeans, and Eastern Europeans and Catholics like the Irish. Those claims are STILL the core basis of even our modern geographical restrictions. Can anyone provide cites and/or an argument showing how the _American identity_ was hurt or destroyed by Irish, Italian, Finnish and other “undesirables” or how the modern context is any different outside of the fact that we don’t restrict it to white people now? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/73 "2018-01-25T17:24:03Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > My link has cites that show that immigration doesn’t really effect the wages of native people, and that even immigrants that are leaving challenging circumstances do well for our country. This is true for legal immigrants, many of whom came over on H1B Visas or Student Visas. This is NOT true of illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/74 "2018-01-25T17:26:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This is true for legal immigrants, many of whom came over on H1B Visas or Student Visas. > > This is NOT true of illegal immigrants. Cite, Because there are a lot of Apple farmers here in Washington state who would be happy to hire native workers that will actually show up for work. Also note that H1B and Student Visas are not residency paths and actually unrelated to the entire subject of Immigration quotas. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/75 "2018-01-25T17:27:17Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Lets put this in context, > > Previous to the 1920’s the only restrictions were really targeted at Asian populations, but they also tried to apply the Chinese Exclusion act against Finnish people, claiming that they were not white. The Federal government lost a court case where they tried to deny Citizenship to a group of Finnish people in 1908. > > In 1909 Senator Henry Cabot Lodge proposed limitations on immigration by Italian, Finnish and other non-Anglo Saxon Europeans. He had been publicly spreading xenophobic fears of foreign radicals migrating to undermine American values for about 20 years at that time. > > They claimed that they were trying to protect the _American identity_ by favoring native-born Americans over Jews, Southern Europeans, and Eastern Europeans and Catholics like the Irish. > > Those claims are STILL the core basis of even our modern geographical restrictions. > > Can anyone provide cites and/or an argument showing how the _American identity_ was hurt or destroyed by Irish, Italian, Finnish and other “undesirables” or how the modern context is any different outside of the fact that we don’t restrict it to white people now? You’re absolutely right here, I’m just not sure how it pertains to the way our immigration system should be structured today, assuming we don’t want to just do open borders, which we don’t. Seems to me that we have plenty of wealthy nations to look to for guidance, much as liberals urge us to do with health care. Is there something about Canada’s immigration laws that is a problem for you? ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/76 "2018-01-25T17:27:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > LThose claims are STILL the core basis of even our modern geographical restrictions. We will need a cite for this^^^ before this / / / gets addressed quite thoroughly… > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Can anyone provide cites and/or an argument showing how the _American identity_ was hurt or destroyed by Irish, Italian, Finnish and other “undesirables” or how the modern context is any different outside of the fact that we don’t restrict it to white people now? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/77 "2018-01-25T17:28:58Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > We will need a cite for this^^^ before this gets addressed quite thoroughly… Look at the link in the very first response to this thread, which is from me. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/78 "2018-01-25T17:30:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Also note that H1B and Student Visas are not residency paths and actually unrelated to the entire subject of Immigration quotas. But they DO check an important box in the immigration paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/79 "2018-01-25T17:32:09Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Look at the link in the very first response to this thread, which is from me. Don’t be obtuse. We’re talking about today, not 100 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/80 "2018-01-25T17:33:32Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Your family apparently played a good game and beat the system, as t’were. Way to go! > > So how do you feel about a family heritage based on [this group of game players?](https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-5684.html) > > Oh and BTW, congratulations for their big contribution to the population explosion, as well! > > Catholics, no doubt. How is that game playing? How did we beat the system? Its the way the system works. It was legal for my parents to bring their parents over. They supported them for the 5 years it took for them to qualify for benefits. Then the state carried much of the burden. I suppose we could ban all immigrants from receiving social benefits. If that’s what you want, then you should try to get them to change the law. Here’s the thing, I can point to millions of families like mine. Maybe not as many doctors, lawyers and engineers but almost all pulling their weight and adding to the prosperity of this country. And as far as I’m concerned his country would be better off if we had a million more families like that. And no we are not Catholic (bigot much?), Is it really that unusual for there to be a generation of 11 cousins? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=5)