# What is the case against "chain immigration"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303 "2018-01-23T16:21:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/81 "2018-01-25T17:34:12Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > But they DO check an important box in the immigration paperwork. In lots of cases they actually increase the complexity of that paperwork. If you don’t luck out by saying have large boobs, a pretty face, and end up marrying a rich dude moving from a non-immigrant visa to a immigration path version adds complexity to the process. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/82 "2018-01-25T17:37:16Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Don’t be obtuse. We’re talking about today, not 100 years ago. Ad hominem, which indicates your argument is lacking substance. The policies and arguments exactly mirror the xenophobic models that produced those laws and actually created the institutions that even created “illegal aliens”. Or are you going to say that the Constitution is also irreverent? ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/83 "2018-01-25T17:38:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > In lots of cases they actually increase the complexity of that paperwork. OK, i’ll play your game: Cite? Because I don’t think you have a clue about how legal immigration works, paperwork or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/84 "2018-01-25T17:38:28Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Cite, The laws of economics > [@](#): > > Because there are a lot of Apple farmers here in Washington state who would be happy to hire native workers that will actually show up for work. They are not paying enough. Pay enough and I will go pick apples. What they want is CHEAP dependable labor, not just dependable labor. > [@](#): > > Also note that H1B and Student Visas are not residency paths and actually unrelated to the entire subject of Immigration quotas. Except of course it is. It is a primary pipeline of employer based greencards. > **[H-1B visa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#H-1B_and_path_to_permanent_residency)** > > The H-1B is a visa in the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H), that allows U.S. employers to employ foreign workers in specialty occupations. A specialty occupation requires the application of specialized knowledge and a bachelor's degree or the equivalent of work experience. The duration of stay is three years, extendable to six years, after which the visa holder can reapply. Laws limit the number of H-1B visas that are issued each year. There exist con... ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/85 "2018-01-25T17:39:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > HAnd no we are not Catholic (bigot much?), Is it really that unusual for there to be a generation of 11 cousins? No - because reproduction is easier and often government-subsidized in this country. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/86 "2018-01-25T17:41:22Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Or are you going to say that the Constitution is also irreverent? Non-Sequitur ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/87 "2018-01-25T17:41:34Z")
Note that the motivations of Henry Cabot Lodge, Albert Johnson and Senator David Reed are well documented. Warning PDF > **[lodge\_immigration.pdf](https://web.archive.org/web/20120306093754/http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/pdocs/lodge_immigration.pdf)** > > 35.21 KB ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/88 "2018-01-25T17:42:36Z")
Rat Avatar is right about agricultural labor though. Hiring native labor has been tried, and they can’t fill jobs at $20/hour. Once you go beyond that, consumers will have problems affording food. Agriculture has depended on migrant labor since the early 20th century. Of course that doesn’t mean we should allow them to use illegal labor, and it also doesn’t mean that other industries need migrant labor. I am nowhere near convinced that we are at a stage where we have to use immigrants for non-agricultural low wage work. As a matter of fact, in Chicago African-American laborers sued companies for preferring Latino workers: > **[Discrimination suit alleges black temp workers passed over for Hispanics](https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-discrimination-temporary-staffing-1207-biz-20161206-story.html)** > > A group of African-American men filed a lawsuit Tuesday in Chicago federal court alleging systematic discrimination by a temporary staffing agency. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/89 "2018-01-25T17:43:57Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What advantage does the US gain by not attempting to attract the best and the brightest to settle here? By adaher’s own posts in this thread, that he is not among the best and brightest; importing them lowers his own chances. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/90 "2018-01-25T17:43:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Note that the motivations of Henry Cabot Lodge, Albert Johnson and Senator David Reed are well documented. > > Warning PDF > > [Wayback Machine](https://web.archive.org/web/20120306093754/http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/pdocs/lodge_immigration.pdf) Not sure if it helps, but I don’t even see why you need a cite for this. This is pretty standard American History 101 stuff and I"m surprised it seems to be new to some. I think you’re drawing the wrong conclusions, but your facts aren’t in question. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/91 "2018-01-25T17:44:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Note that the motivations of Henry Cabot Lodge, Albert Johnson and Senator David Reed are well documented. > > Warning PDF > > [Wayback Machine](https://web.archive.org/web/20120306093754/http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/pdocs/lodge_immigration.pdf) So just to be clear, this scholarly historical document is the evidence for why current immigration law/policy is somehow lacking? Is that your position here? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/92 "2018-01-25T17:46:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The laws of economics > > They are not paying enough. Pay enough and I will go pick apples. What they want is CHEAP dependable labor, not just dependable labor. > > Except of course it is. It is a primary pipeline of employer based greencards. > > [H-1B visa - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#H-1B_and_path_to_permanent_residency) Wait there is a singular universal law of all economics? Can you share it or is it something i’m not allowed to see because my Ancestors illegally immigrated from Finland while the Federal government was illegally applying the China Exclusion act to people born in Finland? Or possibly because they were ferried across the Canadian border by a mining company that needed cheep labor? Economic research shows there is an ADVANTAGE to immigration and that it does not substantially impact native born wages. The article I cited above has links to scholarly papers to that effect. I also assume that you are unable to provide a cite because your argument is on weak ground. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/93 "2018-01-25T17:46:43Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > By adaher’s own posts in this thread, that he is not among the best and brightest; importing them lowers his own chances. Heh. It probably does. Have to admit I was spooked when Disney fired their IT staff so they could hire cheaper immigrants through an obvious abuse of the H-1B system. I’m a low level It worker especially vulnerable to wage and job competition. But then again, my own policy preferences would probably make my life tougher. I want us to have more skilled immigrants. Because then if I get booted out of an IT job, at least I can make comparable money doing physical labor since I won’t be competing with people who will work for minimum wage. I’ll be competing primarily with other Americans. Before I did IT, I did food service. I enjoyed the work and I’ll do it again if I can make a living wage. Very heavy competition from migrants holds wages down in that industry. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/94 "2018-01-25T17:53:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Heh. It probably does. Have to admit I was spooked when Disney fired their IT staff so they could hire cheaper immigrants through an obvious abuse of the H-1B system. I’m a low level It worker especially vulnerable to wage and job competition. But then again, my own policy preferences would probably make my life tougher. I want us to have more skilled immigrants. Because then if I get booted out of an IT job, at least I can make comparable money doing physical labor since I won’t be competing with people who will work for minimum wage. I’ll be competing primarily with other Americans. > > Before I did IT, I did food service. I enjoyed the work and I’ll do it again if I can make a living wage. Very heavy competition from migrants holds wages down in that industry. My god that myth. I WORKED at Disney in their internet arm at that time. Disney didn’t “fire” their workers and replace them with H1Bs, they OUTSOURCED to a company that used H1B workers. Outsourcing is a whole different subject but to infer that Disney was hiring H1B workers to replace native workers is a Myth, or a politically motivated untruth. They hired a company to do work, and laid off the internal workers doing that work. That would have happened no matter if the Firm they hired was using immigrants or restricted hiring to descendants of the Pilgrams. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/95 "2018-01-25T17:58:10Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Oh and BTW, congratulations for their big contribution to the population explosion, as well! > > Catholics, no doubt. I’m not sure what your point is with this mention of Catholics and in your subsequent posts, but it’s uncalled for here. Unless you have a point to make, these both vague and broad brush aspersions are a hijack and jerkish. Knock it off. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/96 "2018-01-25T18:03:06Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > My god that myth. > > I WORKED at Disney in their internet arm at that time. Disney didn’t “fire” their workers and replace them with H1Bs, they OUTSOURCED to a company that used H1B workers. Well, yeah, that’s how Disney got around the law. Pretty huge loophole. > [@](#): > > Outsourcing is a whole different subject but to infer that Disney was hiring H1B workers to replace native workers is a Myth, or a politically motivated untruth. Firing your staff and replacing them with a company paying people a lot less is violating the spirit of the law. And these companies have been hogging the H-1B visas, whose workers are supposed to be making prevailaing wages. > [@](#): > > They hired a company to do work, and laid off the internal workers doing that work. That would have happened no matter if the Firm they hired was using immigrants or restricted hiring to descendants of the Pilgrams. Without the ability to import workers they would be hiring from the same market DIsney was, without the prestige of the Disney brand. There would be no advantage to outsourcing. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/97 "2018-01-25T18:03:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not sure what your point is with this mention of Catholics and in your subsequent posts, but it’s uncalled for here. Unless you have a point to make, these both vague and broad brush aspersions are a hijack and jerkish. Knock it off. > [/moderating] Sorry, got carried away. The POINT was, illegal immigration contains a plethora of related issues. Illegal immigrants are sometimes seen as UN-deserving recipients of government benefits - multiplied by … (Catholic birth control beliefs?) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/98 "2018-01-25T18:13:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Heh. It probably does. Have to admit I was spooked when Disney fired their IT staff so they could hire cheaper immigrants through an obvious abuse of the H-1B system. I’m a low level It worker especially vulnerable to wage and job competition. But then again, my own policy preferences would probably make my life tougher. I want us to have more skilled immigrants. Because then if I get booted out of an IT job, at least I can make comparable money doing physical labor since I won’t be competing with people who will work for minimum wage. I’ll be competing primarily with other Americans. > > Before I did IT, I did food service. I enjoyed the work and I’ll do it again if I can make a living wage. Very heavy competition from migrants holds wages down in that industry. Are you saying that the only reason that food service doesn’t pay as well as IT is because of immigration? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/99 "2018-01-25T18:24:07Z")
No, it would never pay as well as IT, but it wouldn’t be minimum wage either if wages had been allowed to rise with economic growth. One reason for the increasing inequality gap is that businesses that depend on low wage labor have screamed bloody murder whenever labor got more expensive. We see this every time economic growth threatens to lift all boats. “Labor shortage!” the Chamber of Commerce cries. It just used to be that Democrats didn’t listen. Now the Democrats’ position on immigration is almost entirely aligned with the Chamber. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/100 "2018-01-25T18:31:36Z")
Take cab drivers for instance. Almost all of them are immigrants in most major metro areas. Yet Uber drivers in those same metro areas are more proportional, with about as many native Uber drivers as the local population. That indicates a problem either in cab company hiring practices, cab company pay, or cab company working conditions. It doesn’t mean Americans don’t want to drive cabs. Uber has proved that they would very much like to drive people places for money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=6)