# What is the case against "chain immigration"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303 "2018-01-23T16:21:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/101 "2018-01-25T18:37:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And b) that’s the last thing you’d want to see. Latinos aren’t any more or less accepting of foreigners than whites are. Mass Asian immigration would be met with hostility and resentment by the Latino community as well as the white nativist community. You do realize that the resentment and hostility is already here, right? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/102 "2018-01-25T18:40:54Z")
Of course, but mass immigration by a new people would create a new dynamic. Latinos would be voting Republican. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/103 "2018-01-25T18:47:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, yeah, that’s how Disney got around the law. Pretty huge loophole. > > Firing your staff and replacing them with a company paying people a lot less is violating the spirit of the law. And these companies have been hogging the H-1B visas, whose workers are supposed to be making prevailaing wages. > Without the ability to import workers they would be hiring from the same market DIsney was, without the prestige of the Disney brand. There would be no advantage to outsourcing. Irrespective of this debate, If you are really in IT and you think that the above is why outsourcing trend happened I encourage you to dig into the subject soon because it will be important for your future prospects. Seriously the drive to move operations to the cloud often mirror the justifications for outsourcing during that era and it never directly maps to individual wages. It is a complex subject, and I am hampered by my ability to share details about the Disney engagement due to non-disclosure agreements and personal ethics but the above narrative is absolutely not reflective of the truth. Plus Disney IT wasn’t as prestigious as you think it was, the part that was outsourced was mostly file/print operations staff. But some generalized non Disney specific things to consider. 1. Just as the car companies needed a bailout due to pension plans lots of corps may have leveraged outsourcing to phase out that long term debt. 2. CapEX and wages are the only hard metrics in most IT budgets, Consulting and Cloud costs are under OpEx in most orgs and this has always been a less scrutinized budget area. Targets for CTO/CIOs almost always use the hard numbers as metrics. 3. When doing a 1:1 replacement outsourcing it is almost impossible to “save money” due to the additional profit layers, typically a outsourcing firm charges 2.5-3\* of the total compensation to the customer. Savings only happen through gains in efficiency or reduction in headcount. (Or increased costs are hidden in OpEx) 4. Outsourcing and Cloud migrations can sometimes be used in an attempt to deal with cultural issues and/or fiefdom’s that do not a;ign with business needs. 5. Some times outsourcing was used because C\* level employees don’t notice that issues are due to their working style or the culture that they are responsible for creating. 6. Hiring IT folks has been a challenge for years, if a company cannot attract qualified applicants and has to resort to less productive candidates they may hope that a outsourcing firm, which is aligned with that market may provided more productive employees. But I have direct proof that the case that made the Disney story popular wasn’t about money or wages but was about someone not wanting to switch roles for the same pay. > [@](#): > > Disney says it hired more than 100 people back into other roles and offered Moore another position at comparable pay. [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/brinkmann-on-business/os-disney-visa-lawsuit-dismissed-20161014-story.html](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/brinkmann-on-business/os-disney-visa-lawsuit-dismissed-20161014-story.html) That is why he lost in his lawsuit, he wanted his position and his pay. It is pure myth, and while Disney may be a well known brand name to use as political rhetoric in an anti-immigration argument it doesn’t survive examination of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/104 "2018-01-25T18:53:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Take cab drivers for instance. Almost all of them are immigrants in most major metro areas. Yet Uber drivers in those same metro areas are more proportional, with about as many native Uber drivers as the local population. That indicates a problem either in cab company hiring practices, cab company pay, or cab company working conditions. It doesn’t mean Americans don’t want to drive cabs. Uber has proved that they would very much like to drive people places for money. Pay and working conditions, mainly. As a Cab driver, you have to work set hours, whether you feel like it or not, and your pay doesn’t increase if demand increases. You provide a stable source of transportation. As an Uber driver, you drive when you feel like it, or when there is enough demand to make it worth your while. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/105 "2018-01-25T18:55:52Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > OK, i’ll play your game: Cite? > > Because I don’t think you have a clue about how legal immigration works, paperwork or otherwise. First google hit for “h1b to green card” > **[H-1B to Green Card: Processing Time, Steps & Options](https://www.immi-usa.com/from-h1b-to-green-card-process-eb2-or-eb3-visa/)** > > One of the best features of the H-1B visa is that you are allowed to pursue a Green Card. Learn about the process, steps, timeline & more! [ol] [li]You must first find an employer who is willing to sponsor you for your green card by offering you a position that qualifies under an employment-based green card category. This can be either your H1B employer or a different employer.[/li][li]Then, your employer must obtain a PERM Labor Certification. T **his means that the prevailing wage will need to be determined and eventually paid as your wage, an extensive recruitment process must take place for the position you will fill to ensure that no U.S. workers are available, and an ETA 9089 form must be filed.** [/li][li]Once the PERM has been approved, your employer must then file an I-140 Immigration Petition for Alien Worker.[/li][li]As soon as the USCIS receives your petition, that date is your priority date. You will need to wait until your priority date becomes current before moving on to the final step.[/li][li]Once you have a current priority date, you can apply for an adjustment of status by submitting the I-485 form with the USCIS. If it is approved, then you will receive your green card.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/106 "2018-01-25T19:03:00Z")
It would seem to me that the first immigrants would be the ones willing to bust ass and work, logically right? Then they slowly bring over the parents, their kids (who will likely grow up to work) but infirm aunts, uncles and grandparents might be a hold up to the economic side to all this. Once here , they can avail themselves of the healthcare system, and all other forms of welfare and governmental assistance, whether they can help pay for it or not. So my guess would be economic. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/107 "2018-01-25T19:13:45Z")
First, it should not be legal for businesses to set up and run a business model based on importing cheap labor and then offering their services to other companies. Even if Disney didn’t fire the workers but offered them new positions, it is illegal to replace your workers with cheap immigrant workers using H-1B visas. The reason Disney got away with it is because another company set up for the express purpose of hogging a bunch of H-1B visas and then using them to bring in workers for less than they could pay Americans. Then they passed on that savings to Disney. Disney could have applied for and hired H-1B workers themselves, but then they would have had to pay them what they were paying native workers. This a pretty well understood example of abuse that is not limited to just Disney and both Congress and the President have sought to reform the H-1B process. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/108 "2018-01-25T19:27:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > First, it should not be legal for businesses to set up and run a business model based on importing cheap labor and then offering their services to other companies. Even if Disney didn’t fire the workers but offered them new positions, it is illegal to replace your workers with cheap immigrant workers using H-1B visas. The reason Disney got away with it is because another company set up for the express purpose of hogging a bunch of H-1B visas and then using them to bring in workers for less than they could pay Americans. Then they passed on that savings to Disney. Disney could have applied for and hired H-1B workers themselves, but then they would have had to pay them what they were paying native workers. > > This a pretty well understood example of abuse that is not limited to just Disney and both Congress and the President have sought to reform the H-1B process. Provide a cite that Disney chose to outsource to a company that used H1B workers intentionally or that they had any control over the hiring process outside of asking that displaced workers be considered? Do you use AWS in you job? How many Amazon interview loop have you been on because they are a vendor? Do you use Salesforce or other Saas products? How much influence do you have in their hiring process? Disney hired a vendor that provides a service. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/109 "2018-01-25T19:49:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Disney could have applied for and hired H-1B workers themselves, but then they would have had to pay them what they were paying native workers Why would Disney have to pay H-1B workers the native worker rate, but the company they outsourced to didn’t have to? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/110 "2018-01-25T19:50:33Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > No - because reproduction is easier and often government-subsidized in this country. None of my cousins were born in this country ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/111 "2018-01-25T20:08:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Rat Avatar is right about agricultural labor though. Hiring native labor has been tried, and they can’t fill jobs at $20/hour. Once you go beyond that, consumers will have problems affording food. I don’t know how much it would cost to get people to work in agriculture but when they ended the bracero program, the cost of labor rose ~40%. This resulted in an ~4% increase in the cost of produce and ~1% increase in the cost of food generally. I don’t think consumers would have problems affording food without illegal labor. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/112 "2018-01-25T20:13:41Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Wait there is a singular universal law of all economics? Can you share it or is it something i’m not allowed to see because my Ancestors illegally immigrated from Finland while the Federal government was illegally applying the China Exclusion act to people born in Finland? Or possibly because they were ferried across the Canadian border by a mining company that needed cheep labor? Yes, I can share it. Its called the supply and demand curve. As a general rule as the supply of unskilled labor increases, the price for that labor decreases (there are weird things that happen at the very edges of the curve). > [@](#): > > Economic research shows there is an ADVANTAGE to immigration and that it does not substantially impact native born wages. The article I cited above has links to scholarly papers to that effect. No, no it doesn’t not with resect to unskilled illegal immigration. Immigration of the type that Adaher is talking about, yes. Targeted immigration of bottleneck skill sets, yes but we already have an abundance of unskilled labor. We don’t get anything out of having more. > [@](#): > > I also assume that you are unable to provide a cite because your argument is on weak ground. I didn’t think I I’d ever have to cite the law of supply and demand on this board but its really gone downhill in the last few years. > **[Law of Supply and Demand in Economics: How It Works](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-of-supply-demand.asp)** > > The law of supply and demand explains how changes in a product's market price relate to its supply and demand. Demand for basic necessities is less responsive. But at least you seem to have given up on arguing that the H1B Visa program is not a path to citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/113 "2018-01-25T20:22:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Of course, but mass immigration by a new people would create a new dynamic. Latinos would be voting Republican. Sure if the Republicans stopped being racist, Latinos would be much more Republican than they are now but frankly the same could be said of Asians and almost every other immigrant group. Many minorities only vote Democrat because the Republicans are racist. There was a time when most Asians were Republicans and then Asians realized “OMG, the Republican party is racist (against Asians too)!!!” and we switched to Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/114 "2018-01-25T20:28:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Why would Disney have to pay H-1B workers the native worker rate, but the company they outsourced to didn’t have to? Because you can’t fire a $100k/year employee and replace them with a $80k/year H1B employee. However you can fire your IT department and outsource it to a company made up of entirely H1B visa holders that will only charge you $80K/year per employee. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/115 "2018-01-25T21:56:12Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think you’ve missed my point though. If allowing skilled workers into the country, then allowing their immediate family in counts as “relative-based system” then everywhere has a relative-based system, and any immigration policy is a relative-based system, as skilled workers will not migrate without their family. It’s not limited to the immediate family of the skilled worker, though. Even if we limit it to spouse, siblings, spouse’s siblings, and spouse’s sibling’s spouses that can easily get to 15-20 people for our one skilled worker. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/116 "2018-01-25T22:18:43Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > First google hit for “h1b to green card” And this makes naturalized citizen status harder to obtain, how? Like I said, clueless. Your knowledge of immigration law based on quick Google searches is not only weak, but the nonsense injected is a waste of everyone’s time. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/117 "2018-01-25T22:24:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > YBut at least you seem to have given up on arguing that the H1B Visa program is not a path to citizenship. No, he’s still working on it. And I wish to apologize for my previous attack on you. I somehow misread your prior post and thought you grandparents were the original (illegal) immigrants, not the chained. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/118 "2018-01-25T22:36:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s not limited to the immediate family of the skilled worker, though. Even if we limit it to spouse, siblings, spouse’s siblings, and spouse’s sibling’s spouses that can easily get to 15-20 people for our one skilled worker. Skilled workers are likely to be related to other skilled workers. “Skilled” doesn’t necessarily mean “college educated” and I wouldn’t even know how to search for actual studies corroborating my anecdata, but IME people who were the first in their family to achieve X training milestone are likely to come from hard-working, motivated families. The one who was “the first to finish college” or “the first to learn to read and write” may have had more educational motivation or just more educational opportunities, but in general the work ethic will be the same. And while mechanic is in many countries a lower educational level than lawyer, it is also a skill which translates better. People who go first through the process of migrating and then through that of bringing in relatives through family reunification generally do not do it for their Idiot Cousin or their Abusive Uncle; they do it for those relatives they consider to be worth the effort. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/119 "2018-01-25T23:04:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Skilled workers are likely to be related to other skilled workers. “Skilled” doesn’t necessarily mean “college educated” and I wouldn’t even know how to search for actual studies corroborating my anecdata, but IME people who were the first in their family to achieve X training milestone are likely to come from hard-working, motivated families. The one who was “the first to finish college” or “the first to learn to read and write” may have had more educational motivation or just more educational opportunities, but in general the work ethic will be the same. And while mechanic is in many countries a lower educational level than lawyer, it is also a skill which translates better. > > People who go first through the process of migrating and then through that of bringing in relatives through family reunification generally do not do it for their Idiot Cousin or their Abusive Uncle; they do it for those relatives they consider to be worth the effort. That is a good reply to this: > [@Kearsen](#): > > It would seem to me that the first immigrants would be the ones willing to bust ass and work, logically right? > > Then they slowly bring over the parents, their kids (who will likely grow up to work) but infirm aunts, uncles and grandparents might be a hold up to the economic side to all this. Once here , they can avail themselves of the healthcare system, and all other forms of welfare and governmental assistance, whether they can help pay for it or not. > > So my guess would be economic. So, not the overall reason when looking to get more relatives in. And I have to add that indeed, infirm aunts or other relatives are not a priority for immigrants like me because even spouses also have to pass a battery of health tests before being allowed to come in. I is very unlikely that other relatives could avoid that while the immigration office also looks at the family income to check if they are able to support the new immigrants before letting them in. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/120 "2018-01-25T23:14:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, I can share it. > > Its called the supply and demand curve. As a general rule as the supply of unskilled labor increases, the price for that labor decreases (there are weird things that happen at the very edges of the curve). > > No, no it doesn’t not with resect to unskilled illegal immigration. Immigration of the type that Adaher is talking about, yes. Targeted immigration of bottleneck skill sets, yes but we already have an abundance of unskilled labor. We don’t get anything out of having more. > > I didn’t think I I’d ever have to cite the law of supply and demand on this board but its really gone downhill in the last few years. > > [Law of Supply and Demand in Economics: How It Works](https://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp) > > But at least you seem to have given up on arguing that the H1B Visa program is not a path to citizenship. The only reason IT jobs pay so well is because there is more demand than supply. It is not that we don’t understand supply vs demand but that you haven’t provided a single bit of evidence that it relates. In fact we are suffering from an IT staffing shortage which is WHY people deal with the complexity of getting H1B visa applicants. You are once again also ignoring the scholarly cites that also debunk this unsubstantiated claim. > **[Immigration in American Economic History](https://www.nber.org/papers/w21882)** > > Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals. > **[Immigration and the Rise of American Ingenuity](https://www.nber.org/papers/w23137)** > > Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals. > **[DP12347 Does population diversity matter for economic development in the very...](https://cepr.org/publications/dp12347)** > > Does population diversity matter for economic development in the long-run? Does the impact of diversity differ over time? This paper traces the short-, medium-, and long-term economic impact of population diversity resulting from the big migration... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=7)