# What is the case against "chain immigration"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303 "2018-01-23T16:21:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/121 "2018-01-25T23:17:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because you can’t fire a $100k/year employee and replace them with a $80k/year H1B employee. > > However you can fire your IT department and outsource it to a company made up of entirely H1B visa holders that will only charge you $80K/year per employee. Explain to me how the outsourcing company makes any money here? They typically would charge around ~160K to ~240K a year for a ~80K employee, they would have to eat 15% just in Social Security costs alone if the above were true. This is just not realistic unless the staffing company can allocate those resources to multiple clients at one time. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/122 "2018-01-25T23:20:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The laws of economics > > They are not paying enough. Pay enough and I will go pick apples. What they want is CHEAP dependable labor, not just dependable labor. > > Except of course it is. It is a primary pipeline of employer based greencards. > > [H-1B visa - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#H-1B_and_path_to_permanent_residency) The entire section between winning an H1B to the application for a I-140 Immigration Petition for Alien Worker form is an extra step. There may be reasons like making sure an employee is actually someone you find valuable enough to retain, but the claim that it is a “check the box” path to a green card is absolutely false. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/123 "2018-01-25T23:24:59Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > And this makes naturalized citizen status harder to obtain, how? > > Like I said, clueless. Your knowledge of immigration law based on quick Google searches is not only weak, but the nonsense injected is a waste of everyone’s time. See the above posts, it is more complex, has more steps etc… Feel free to hand wave this away, but I can’t debate with absolute dogma. Why not pay an immigration lawyer for an hour of their time, hopefully you will accept that answer. The one HUGE advantage an H1B holder has is an employer who feels that the pain to retain a valuable employee is worth the pain. Trust me if there was a oversupply of qualified citizen candidates they wouldn’t go through this effort. IT is a good example, where someone who knows how to install Windows automatically assumes that they can manage complex critical distributed systems. If you are having a hard time finding a job in IT right now you should take that as a very good indicator to work on your skill set; including soft skills. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/124 "2018-01-25T23:58:10Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > …the claim that it is a “check the box” path to a green card is absolutely false. Good thing rather than quoting me you just incorrectly re-phrased what I stated. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/125 "2018-01-25T23:59:14Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If you are having a hard time finding a job in IT right now you should take that as a very good indicator to work on your skill set; including soft skills. Like debating? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/126 "2018-01-26T00:22:07Z")
I also want to expressly call out that protectionist behavior puts the very success of our country at risk. It is really easy to reduce humans to replaceable cogs, but the reality is that due to our education system and anti-intellectualism culture in the US our success is highly dependent on immigrants for innovation heavy fields. > **[U.S. High-Skilled Immigration, Innovation, and Entrepreneurship: Empirical...](https://www.nber.org/papers/w19377)** > > Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals. > [@](#): > > In terms of quality, the average skilled immigrant appears to be better trained to work in these fields, but conditional on educational attainment of comparable quality to natives. The exception to this is that immigrants have a disproportionate impact among the very highest achievers (e.g., Nobel Prize winners). > [@](#): > > We overall conclude, as many others have, that immigration has been > essential for the United States’ leadership in innovation and entrepreneurship. The available evidence is that protectionist policies will most likely lead to worse economic conditions for Americans. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/127 "2018-01-26T00:32:44Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Good thing rather than quoting me you just incorrectly re-phrased what I stated. This thread is starting to feel like I walked through the abuse door at the Argument Clinic by mistake. OK, I’m done if you want to play games, obviously you have no desire to actually debate. That said: Amazon average wages: Software Development Engineer II: $117,750 per year. Amazon H1B holder: $116,694 per year. [https://www.myvisajobs.com/Seattle-WA-2016WC.htm](https://www.myvisajobs.com/Seattle-WA-2016WC.htm) [https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Amazon-Salaries-E6036.htm](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Amazon-Salaries-E6036.htm) Have fun with the last reply, on how H1B’s are for cheap labor etc… ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/128 "2018-01-26T06:05:13Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is really easy to reduce humans to replaceable cogs, but the reality is that due to our education system and anti-intellectualism culture in the US our success is highly dependent on immigrants for innovation heavy fields. Amen. I think this is a fantastic opportunity for other countries. Many countries heavily invest in innovation of course, but I mean set themselves up as an innovation hub for people from anywhere in the world. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/129 "2018-01-26T08:23:30Z")
And they’ll do that by importing poor unskilled laborers? Don’t hold your breath. ONly we’re that stupid. Anyway, Trump proposed limiting family reunification to spouses and minor children. Which is how it should be. Americans move thousands of miles away from their adult children, parents, and siblings all the time. It is not actually a life requirement to have your non dependent family close to you, and Trump proposes to reallocate those slots to people more likely to help the American economy. You know, the people immigration advocates disingenuosly claim they want. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/130 "2018-01-26T08:44:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And they’ll do that by importing poor unskilled laborers? No, very obviously we were talking about skilled workers, which are one of the main recipients of green cards. > [@](#): > > Anyway, Trump proposed limiting family reunification to spouses and minor children. Sure, and if all he’d done is propose that, then I’d disagree (I think there should be _some_ circumstances a sibling could come over), but I’d respect his position. For once I’d say: “Hey, at least he sounds like a grown-up”. Instead we have “shithole countries”, “chain migration” and nonsense about other countries picking out lottery balls to decide who comes over. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/131 "2018-01-26T08:52:11Z")
Not many people respect Trump, but he is the President, so unless you want to do nothing, which is fine, you have to deal with his proposals. Using his stupid statements around them can be used an excuse to do nothing, but keep in mind that our immigration laws already give Republicans 90% of what they want. Doing nothing works better for the GOP’s immigration goals than for the Democrats. By the time the Democrats win everything back in 2020, there’ll be a lot fewer Dreamers to give a path to citizenship to. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/132 "2018-01-26T09:24:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not many people respect Trump, but he is the President, so unless you want to do nothing, which is fine, you have to deal with his proposals. Using his stupid statements around them can be used an excuse to do nothing, but keep in mind that our immigration laws already give Republicans 90% of what they want. Doing nothing works better for the GOP’s immigration goals than for the Democrats. By the time the Democrats win everything back in 2020, there’ll be a lot fewer Dreamers to give a path to citizenship to. Sounds like we agree on this point. Trump talks a lot of shit (and regardless of whether he’s president, if the emporer has no clothes, I’m going to point that out) and US immigration policy is indeed much closer to republican ideals than democrats’, and may well skew further that way in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/133 "2018-01-26T09:39:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And they’ll do that by importing poor unskilled laborers? Don’t hold your breath. ONly we’re that stupid. > > Anyway, Trump proposed limiting family reunification to spouses and minor children. Which is how it should be. Americans move thousands of miles away from their adult children, parents, and siblings all the time. It is not actually a life requirement to have your non dependent family close to you, and Trump proposes to reallocate those slots to people more likely to help the American economy. You know, the people immigration advocates disingenuosly claim they want. I have no dog in this fight, but thats a tad unrealistic. Yes people move away from adult siblings, parents, grown up kids all the time. But these things aren’t static. As parents grow older its fairly common for them to want to move where they are closer to their children. With a skilled visa you aren going to get “chain migration”, either formally, or informally (say by getting a tourist visa and then staying for the maximum time allowed) eventually. Look at it this way Joe from Alabama gets a tech job in California. He moves there. Over the next several years as he works, he marries, raises a family makes friends locally, lays down roots. His aged parents and inlaws visit him and his wife. Visits get longer and longer After a while as the grow older he suggests they move there to be nearer him. They agree. And move. Jose from Argentina gets a tech job in California. He moves there. Over the next several years as he works, he marries, raises a family makes friends locally, lays down roots. His aged parents and inlaws visit him and his wife. Visits get longer and longer After a while as the grow older he suggests they move there to be nearer him. They agree. And get stuck in immigration bureacracy. Or are barred. Contarary to what you seem to think the obligations and responsibilities of every day life don’t end just because you have moved to a foreign land and are non-white. Probably there are ways to solve this (maybe a visa which permits longer stays but is contingent on getting private insurance). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/134 "2018-01-26T10:18:16Z")
That’s why I’d expand it to include dependents of all sorts. The dependents would not have a path to citizenship if they are not children, nor would they get work permits, but they could come up to live with or near the person they are dependent on. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/135 "2018-01-26T15:02:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s why I’d expand it to include dependents of all sorts. The dependents would not have a path to citizenship if they are not children, nor would they get work permits, but they could come up to live with or near the person they are dependent on. At that point, why not allow the dependents the opportunity to work if they are able? Or is it simply a matter of if Grandma comes here as a dependent she is only ever allowed to be a dependent, and if she feels capable of finding a part-time job she needs to go back to her previous residence? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/136 "2018-01-27T16:21:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s why I’d expand it to include dependents of all sorts. The dependents would not have a path to citizenship if they are not children, nor would they get work permits, but they could come up to live with or near the person they are dependent on. So you’d rather bring in people who need assistance than people who will contribute to the economy? You were already pointing in that direction, but you keep sounding more and more like my Idiot Aunt. She has “nothing against Those People picking up lettuce, but they should not be able to get better jobs than my children” (my cousins being high school and middle school dropouts; eventually the older one got a college degree). Do you also oppose uppity women going to college, specially in non-caretaker fields? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/137 "2018-01-29T23:20:17Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > No, he’s still working on it. And I wish to apologize for my previous attack on you. I somehow misread your prior post and thought you grandparents were the original (illegal) immigrants, not the chained. Why do you think there is a difference between the two? AFAICT, very few people come to America for the benefits. They come here for economic opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/138 "2018-01-29T23:22:00Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The only reason IT jobs pay so well is because there is more demand than supply. > > It is not that we don’t understand supply vs demand but that you haven’t provided a single bit of evidence that it relates. > > In fact we are suffering from an IT staffing shortage which is WHY people deal with the complexity of getting H1B visa applicants. > > You are once again also ignoring the scholarly cites that also debunk this unsubstantiated claim. > > [http://www.nber.org/papers/w21882](http://www.nber.org/papers/w21882) > > [http://www.nber.org/papers/w23137](http://www.nber.org/papers/w23137) > > [DP12347 Does population diversity matter for economic development in the very long-term? Historic migration, diversity and county wealth in the US | CEPR](http://cepr.org/active/publications/discussion_papers/dp.php?dpno=12347) I don’t know if you understand the conversation you are having but we were talking about how ILLEGAL immigration suppresses wages. Because we do NOT have a shortage of unskilled labor. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/139 "2018-01-30T01:41:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The only reason IT jobs pay so well is because there is more demand than supply. > > It is not that we don’t understand supply vs demand but that you haven’t provided a single bit of evidence that it relates. > > In fact we are suffering from an IT staffing shortage which is WHY people deal with the complexity of getting H1B visa applicants. > > You are once again also ignoring the scholarly cites that also debunk this unsubstantiated claim. > > [http://www.nber.org/papers/w21882](http://www.nber.org/papers/w21882) > > [http://www.nber.org/papers/w23137](http://www.nber.org/papers/w23137) > > [DP12347 Does population diversity matter for economic development in the very long-term? Historic migration, diversity and county wealth in the US | CEPR](http://cepr.org/active/publications/discussion_papers/dp.php?dpno=12347) I suppose we were also talking about H1B Visas suppressing wages and they do. How much supply of IT labor are you getting at current wage rates? Not enough? Then raise the wages!!! You will see more and more people move into those areas. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/140 "2018-01-30T01:42:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Explain to me how the outsourcing company makes any money here? > They typically would charge around ~160K to ~240K a year for a ~80K employee, they would have to eat 15% just in Social Security costs alone if the above were true. > > This is just not realistic unless the staffing company can allocate those resources to multiple clients at one time. By only paying the foreign labor 50k? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=8)