# What is the case against "chain immigration"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303 "2018-01-23T16:21:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/141 "2018-01-30T01:43:36Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The entire section between winning an H1B to the application for a I-140 Immigration Petition for Alien Worker form is an extra step. > > There may be reasons like making sure an employee is actually someone you find valuable enough to retain, but the claim that it is a “check the box” path to a green card is absolutely false. Who the hell said that it was check the box? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/142 "2018-01-30T14:52:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > By only paying the foreign labor 50k? I thought H1B visa holders had to be paid the prevalent wage? ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/143 "2018-01-30T15:21:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I thought H1B visa holders had to be paid the prevalent wage? You mean like women? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/144 "2018-01-30T17:20:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > By only paying the foreign labor 50k? Did you just ignore the cite I provided? I cannot debate dogma. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/145 "2018-01-30T17:21:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I suppose we were also talking about H1B Visas suppressing wages and they do. > > How much supply of IT labor are you getting at current wage rates? Not enough? Then raise the wages!!! You will see more and more people move into those areas. I have 4 positions TODAY I could fill that would pay ~180K a year, if I could find qualified workers. Provide a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/146 "2018-01-30T17:23:13Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I have 4 positions TODAY I could fill that would pay ~180K a year, if I could find qualified workers. > > Provide a cite. What are the qualifications needed? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/147 "2018-01-30T17:35:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What are the qualifications needed? Operational and Engineering experience in migration of complex systems to the cloud. Basically an understanding of CI/CD model, distributed systems, automation and cloud providers and the soft skills required to help companies implement them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/148 "2018-01-30T17:58:46Z")
Well, I wish I knew that stuff 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/149 "2018-01-30T18:00:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why do you think there is a difference between the two? > > AFAICT, very few people come to America for the benefits. They come here for economic opportunity. For Western Europeans, moving for the benefits makes as much sense as cutting your own throat and trying to yodel. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/150 "2018-01-30T20:06:56Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > What is the case against “chain immigration”? It’s a staging area for ["il"legal chain immigration?](http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/sd-me-daca-smuggling-20180129-story.html) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/151 "2018-02-01T14:08:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Did you just ignore the cite I provided? > > I cannot debate dogma. What cite did you provide that says that H1B visas do not suppress wages? It seems that H1B visas frequently (but not always) suppress wages. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/152 "2018-02-01T14:23:54Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I have 4 positions TODAY I could fill that would pay ~180K a year, if I could find qualified workers. > > Provide a cite. If you can’t fill the position, you aren’t paying enough. Are you saying that no one in America has these skills? Or that the ones that already have these skills are already making that much money or more so they have no incentive to go work for you? If you want the workers, then compete for them. The H1B Visa program is part of what makes you think you don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/153 "2018-02-01T16:30:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you can’t fill the position, you aren’t paying enough. Are you saying that no one in America has these skills? Or that the ones that already have these skills are already making that much money or more so they have no incentive to go work for you? > > If you want the workers, then compete for them. The H1B Visa program is part of what makes you think you don’t have to. There are not enough people with the skills for the work that needs to be done. **Rat Avatar** could bid up the position, and poach someone from someone else’s firm, but then they are short, and need to bid up and poach from someone else. It is not that no one in america has these skills, it is that not enough people in america have these skills. Our education system just isn’t up to the task of creating the workforce that today’s economy is needing. As an analogy, say you have 10 people in a conference room, and I give out 6 lunches to those who pay the most for them. Do you go to the 4 that didn’t get lunch, and tell them that they could have eaten, if only they were willing to pay out more? If so, you do realize that you would be having that exact same conversation with 4 people no matter how much people were willing to pay? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/154 "2018-02-01T17:04:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There are not enough people with the skills for the work that needs to be done. **Rat Avatar** could bid up the position, and poach someone from someone else’s firm, but then they are short, and need to bid up and poach from someone else. > > It is not that no one in america has these skills, it is that not enough people in america have these skills. Our education system just isn’t up to the task of creating the workforce that today’s economy is needing. > > As an analogy, say you have 10 people in a conference room, and I give out 6 lunches to those who pay the most for them. Do you go to the 4 that didn’t get lunch, and tell them that they could have eaten, if only they were willing to pay out more? If so, you do realize that you would be having that exact same conversation with 4 people no matter how much people were willing to pay? It’s not a binary option of “have skills” and “don’t have skills”. Without the H1B Visa, everyone slides up a bit in responsibility and entry level roles are filled by new hires. The “shortage” of IT workers comes down to an unwillingness for companies to hire and train for roles. A huge part of that is because they can get experienced employees on H1B for their entry level roles. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/155 "2018-02-01T17:10:26Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s not a binary option of “have skills” and “don’t have skills”. Without the H1B Visa, everyone slides up a bit in responsibility and entry level roles are filled by new hires. The “shortage” of IT workers comes down to an unwillingness for companies to hire and train for roles. A huge part of that is because they can get experienced employees on H1B for their entry level roles. So, you are saying that companies that need employees need to open up colleges in order to train them? Not a bad idea, actually, but a bit out of the scope of immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/156 "2018-02-01T17:32:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There are not enough people with the skills for the work that needs to be done. **Rat Avatar** could bid up the position, and poach someone from someone else’s firm, but then they are short, and need to bid up and poach from someone else. > > It is not that no one in america has these skills, it is that not enough people in america have these skills. Our education system just isn’t up to the task of creating the workforce that today’s economy is needing. > > As an analogy, say you have 10 people in a conference room, and I give out 6 lunches to those who pay the most for them. Do you go to the 4 that didn’t get lunch, and tell them that they could have eaten, if only they were willing to pay out more? If so, you do realize that you would be having that exact same conversation with 4 people no matter how much people were willing to pay? There are all sorts of shortages in the marketplace from time to time. When there is a shortage of oil, oil prices pike and people find more oil. When there is a shortage of people who can move systems to the cloud, those labor prices never spike because you just import them from India. There is never an incentive to order more sandwiches (or cloud engineers). Let the prices spike and people from other areas of IT will get up to speed on what you need in a fucking hurry. At some point people who were going to be doctors, lawyers and rocket scientists will fill step in to fill that shortage. But understand that sometimes you need that NOW. So I am not averse to H1B Visas if you pay them 180K/year. But the vast majority of H1B Visa holders are getting paid less than 100K/year (there is a large amount of bunching at the 60K level because that is the minimum you can pay to H1B Visa holders) for jobs that might be 150K/year jobs if we didn’t have the H1B Visa program. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/157 "2018-02-01T17:36:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you are saying that companies that need employees need to open up colleges in order to train them? > > Not a bad idea, actually, but a bit out of the scope of immigration. Or they need to pay more so that college students go into those areas. Engineering school is hard. The incentive to go there is a fairly modest difference in lifetime income compared to other easier degrees. > **[The 5 highest paying degrees of 2015](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2015/01/31/cheat-sheet-highest-paying-degrees/22478439/)** > > On average, engineering majors earn $3.5 million over the course of their lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/158 "2018-02-01T18:09:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are all sorts of shortages in the marketplace from time to time. When there is a shortage of oil, oil prices pike and people find more oil. Yeah, often times in other countries. > [@](#): > > When there is a shortage of people who can move systems to the cloud, those labor prices never spike because you just import them from India. There is never an incentive to order more sandwiches (or cloud engineers). Engerneering is the highest paid field for a grad student, with the best job prospects. If you have an engierring degree, you are not getting passed over by immigrants. > [@](#): > > Let the prices spike and people from other areas of IT will get up to speed on what you need in a fucking hurry. At some point people who were going to be doctors, lawyers and rocket scientists will fill step in to fill that shortage. And now we are short on doctors, lawyers, and rocket scientists. > [@](#): > > But understand that sometimes you need that NOW. So I am not averse to H1B Visas if you pay them 180K/year. Why would you pay a H1B 3 times the rate you would hire an american? > [@](#): > > But the vast majority of H1B Visa holders are getting paid less than 100K/year (there is a large amount of bunching at the 60K level because that is the minimum you can pay to H1B Visa holders) for jobs that might be 150K/year jobs if we didn’t have the H1B Visa program. You do realize that americans with these degrees make quite a bit of money. The numbers you are throwing out are starting salaries, not ending. They are the salary that you give someone fresh out of college with no on the job experience. eta > [@](#): > > Or they need to pay more so that college students go into those areas. > > Engineering school is hard. The incentive to go there is a fairly modest difference in lifetime income compared to other easier degrees. College is hard, engineering school is not that much harder than computer science, and really even math and sciences. Your site shows that business graduates make 20% less at graduation, and about 33% less over their lifetimes. That’s not “fairly modest”, that’s fairly dramatic. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/159 "2018-02-01T20:56:09Z")
Note in the computer fields, school can help but is irreverent to long term career success. While a generalization, and with the understanding that this means it in no way applies to an individual the issue is that we aren’t producing enough people who are capable of keeping up with the knowledge required to meet business needs. The “send them to college” or “give them training” arguments above illustrate this issue. Consider the FLSA Overtime exemption description for skilled computer professionals. [ol] [li]The application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software or system functional specifications;[/li][li]The design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications; [or][/li][li]The design, documentation, testing, creation or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems;[/li][/ol] The positions being filled are creative knowledge work, and due to the lag time college courses are always years and years behind. A degree can provide a structure to learn the fundamentals, which are critical to know but it will not teach you habits about autodidacticism. Anti-intellectualism that is demonstrated in examples like how people will actually brag about being bad at math is a much larger barrier. While not universal the places I have been spend a lot of time recruiting interns and trying to get people motivated up the chain, and the blocker never potential but will. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303/160 "2018-02-01T22:16:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you are saying that companies that need employees need to open up colleges in order to train them? > > Not a bad idea, actually, but a bit out of the scope of immigration. No, they would need to hire and train people for there jobs. The reason they don’t is not due to a lack of CS graduates. Many (most?) programmers don’t have CS degrees. It’s simply cheaper to hire someone H1B visa than to hire and train. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-case-against-chain-immigration/807303.md?page=9)