# What is the connection between Ellison's short stories and the Terminator movies?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [March 19, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589 "2003-03-19T17:40:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/1 "2003-03-19T17:40:24Z")
I have read and heard that James Cameron’s _Terminator_ movies are based in part on Harlan Ellison’s short stories “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream” and “Demon with a Glass Hand”.
Now, I’ve read “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream”. The only connection I can make to _The Terminator_ is that “I Have No Mouth” might have been the inspiration for the concept of Skynet. But that seems tenuous.
I know that “Demon” involves time travel, but I’ve never read it.
So what are the particular similarities between the short stories and the _Terminator_ movies? I know that either Ellison or some other rights-holding agent got Orion Pictures or MGM Video (?) to add a credit to Ellison on some release of _The Terminator_ (not the original cut, though) – but I don’t know what legal grounds Ellison (or a rights-holding agent) had to stand on.
What’s the story here?
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### Author:  [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/2 "2003-03-19T17:52:40Z")
It wasn’t “Demon”; it was Ellison’s “Soldier” that Harlan sued over. Both were Outer Limits episode.
“Soldier” was about a human killing machine from the future. Sound familiar? 🙂
Ellison sued after Cameron made public statements that **Terminator** was based on that story, and there was evidence that Cameron tracked down the tape of the show (well before it was readily available on VCR) when writing Terminator.
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### Author:  [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/3 "2003-03-19T17:52:54Z")
Actually, I heard it was the **Outer Limits** episode _Soldier_, which was about two time-traveling soldiers, as well as _Demon_. I had not heard about the other one.
Anyway, I think that at some point Cameron cited those stories as inspirations for _Terminator_, at which point Ellison said, “Oh, yeah, then you better give _me_ some credit.”
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/4 "2003-03-19T18:25:43Z")
[IMDB sez:](http://us.imdb.com/Trivia?0088247)
> [@](#):
>
> **Science fiction author Harlan Ellison sued Cameron, claiming that the film was plagiarized from the two _“Outer Limits, The (1963)”_ episodes that Ellison wrote, namely “Soldier” and “Demon With a Glass Hand”. The concept of “Skynet” could also have been borrowed from an Ellison short story called “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream”. The suit was settled out of court and newer prints of the film acknowledge Ellison.**
Funny, that page didn’t come up in Google.
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### Author:  [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/5 "2003-03-19T20:37:55Z")
The script for “Soldier,” also included a scene where Qarlo (Michael Ansara) went to a gun shop and took a weapon, which was similar to the scene in “The Terminator.” This scene was never filmed, but the script (and Ellison’s original short story “Soldier From Tomorrow”) have been available in book form for over 35 years.
Sir Rhosis
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### Author:  [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/6 "2003-03-19T20:44:46Z")
^^^I’m going to backpedal a bit. I believe there was a gun-stealing scene in the show, after all. Memory…
And to call Qarlo a “man killing machine” is only metaphorically true. He was human–altered, enhanced, certainly, but not literally a machine.
Sir Rhosis
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### Author:  [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/7 "2003-03-20T01:29:46Z")
slight hijack – I’d like to know why Ellison hasn’t sued the makers (and Woody Allen in particular) of the 3-parter movie “New York Stories” (1989), for the apparent plagiarism in Woody’s segment of Ellison’s story “Mom” (1975). In Harlan’s words, his story is “about a Jewish momma’s boy, whose mother has just died, and the ghost comes back to _nuhdz_ him”. And so she follows him around, invading his privacy, scaring off the gentile girls he’s attracted to while constantly trying to set him up with nice Jewish girls… sound familiar?
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### Author:  [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/8 "2003-03-20T01:31:16Z")
This reminds me of the time my brother and I finally watched “Soldier.” He’d been a fan of _Terminator_ for awhile and he saw it on cable and saw the acknowledgement to Ellison in the closing credits. He asked me, “Who’s Harlan Ellison?”
“Oh, he wrote ‘City on the Edge of Forever’ for _Star Trek_ and a few episodes of the old _Outer Limits_ and the new _Twilight Zone_.” (I was referring to the 1985 revival.) “Supposedly, James Cameron ripped off one of his _Outer Limits_ episodes when he wrote _Terminator_.”
“Oh. Where’d you hear about this?”
“_Starlog_ and _Cinefantastique_ magazines.” (The internet as we now know it didn’t exist then; this was more than 15 years ago.)
Months went by, perhaps a year or more. Then a local station decided to do an _Outer Limits_ marathon and they ended it by running “Soldier” and “Glass Hand” back to back. I told my brother it was on and we watched “Soldier” together.
Even before it was over, we could see the similarities, especially the scenes in the police station involving Ansara and Lloyd Nolan and a very young Tim O’Connor (whom we knew from _Buck Rogers_), which were so similar to the scenes between Michael Biehn and Paul Winfield (the detective) and Earl Boen (the psychiatrist) in their police station. We thought the FX showing the enemy stuck between the future and the present were very lame, even for a black-and-white show made in 1964, and we thought the future cigarette that lit itself was clever and cool.
Anyway, Harlan definitely deserved the cash and Cameron is an over-rated hack (as a writer). Hell, I think Cameron even used some of the lines Harlan wrote for “Soldier”!
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/9 "2003-03-20T02:29:44Z")
Harlan Ellison is a great, great writer IMO, he’s got imagination, wit, and great technique. “Hitler Painted Roses” is one of my favorite short stories ever.
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### Author:  [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/10 "2003-03-20T04:55:32Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by The Scrivener \*
> \*\*slight hijack – I’d like to know why Ellison hasn’t sued the makers (and Woody Allen in particular) of the 3-parter movie “New York Stories” (1989), for the apparent plagiarism in Woody’s segment of Ellison’s story “Mom” (1975). \*\*
My guess: A licencing agreement of some kind.
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### Author:  [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/11 "2003-03-20T05:52:08Z")
Perhaps, but I don’t remember seeing any acknowledgement of HE the last time I rented “NYS”.
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### Author:  [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/12 "2003-03-20T05:58:31Z")
I believe that Ellison actually claimed that _The Terminator_ stole from both the “Soldier” episode and the “Demon with a Glass Hand” episode of _The Outer Limits_. Apparently Cameron actually gave interviews in which he said that he was inspired by certain episodes of _The Outer Limits_. The interesting thing is that when I saw _The Outer Limits_ when it came out, I immediately thought, “Hey, this is similar to an episode of _The Outer Limits_ that I remember.” But it wasn’t one of Ellison’s episodes that I remembered. It was the “The Man Who Was Never Born” episode.
The truth, I think, is that _The Terminator_ steals from everything. For instance, it steals from some Philip K. Dick short stories. It’s still a great movie, but it’s clearly a pastiche of a whole era of science fiction.
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### Author:  [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/13 "2003-03-20T13:38:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by The Scrivener \*
> \*\*slight hijack – I’d like to know why Ellison hasn’t sued the makers (and Woody Allen in particular) of the 3-parter movie “New York Stories” (1989), for the apparent plagiarism in Woody’s segment of Ellison’s story “Mom” (1975). In Harlan’s words, his story is “about a Jewish momma’s boy, whose mother has just died, and the ghost comes back to _nuhdz_ him”. And so she follows him around, invading his privacy, scaring off the gentile girls he’s attracted to while constantly trying to set him up with nice Jewish girls… sound familiar? \*\*
Because you can’t copyright a plot or an idea. Since Allen never stated he got the idea from an Ellison story and Ellison couldn’t prove Allen ripped him off, there was no case.
Cameron admitted the theft, so Ellison nailed him. If he hadn’t, Ellision would have had a tougher case (though he still could have won, as he did when he sued the producers of “Holmes and Yoyo” over “Brillo”\*).
\*Both featured a robot cop. Though the derivation of the title of “Brillo” (for “metal fuzz”) is funnier than the entire H&Y series.
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### Author:  [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/14 "2003-03-20T20:32:44Z")
I think it was “Future Cop,” Chuck, not H&Y, though I agree totally with your sentiments re “Brillo.” I recall seeing a couple segments of “Future Cop,” and I mst admit that I was surprised when Ellison and Bova won. There were not nearly the clearly lifted elements there as there was in “Soldier”/“Terminator.”
Sir Rhosis
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### Author:  [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/15 "2003-03-20T21:29:53Z")
Yeah, you’re right – it was “Future Cop.” I got my bad TV shows mixed up. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-ellisons-short-stories-and-the-terminator-movies/162589/16 "2003-03-21T02:36:15Z")
The reason that Ellison and Bova were able to sue the producers of _Future Cop_ was that they had shown the script for _Brillo_ to the producers. The producers told Ellison and Bova that they weren’t interested in producing _Brillo_, but then they made the show _Future Cop_. What this means is that if you’re going to steal an idea that you can claim is too common in the genre to be copyrighted, just go ahead and steal it. Don’t give interviews in which you acknowledge having seen or read a similar book or movie. Don’t let it be known that you’ve looked at a similar screenplay.