# What is the correct way to address a knighted person directly and how to refer indirectly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 26, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234 "2011-08-26T22:02:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/21 "2011-08-30T02:03:53Z")
I’m going to a function at Government House this evening, and I thought it might be interesting to show the details of the protocol that have been issued to us (especially no 4 below): > [@](#): > > So that everyone is aware: Ms Bashir’s full title is: > **Her Excellency Professor Marie Bashir AC CVO, Governor of NSW** > (please don’t confuse her title with the Governor-General Quentin Bryce!) > > In the instance that you may be introduced to the Governor, please note that the following protocol is to be followed: > > 1. People are \*\*‘presented’ \*\*to the Governor - **not** introduced. If you wish to introduce someone to her you say, “I wish to \*\*present \*\*NAME” - then state TITLE/POSITION. > > 2. When first presented to the Governor address her as **YOUR EXCELLENCY**. From then on you can use **MA’AM** or **GOVERNOR**. > > 3. Strictly speaking it is correct, when meeting the Governor, for men and women to make a “court bow” (which means inclining the head towards the chest while standing upright). However, a handshake is perfectly acceptable, and women may curtsey, if they prefer. > > 4. Her husband is addressed as ‘Sir Nicholas’ at all times. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/22 "2011-08-30T03:03:27Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > I’m going to a function at Government House this evening, and I thought it might be interesting to show the details of the protocol that have been issued to us (especially no 4 below): And, just to be clear, her husband is “Sir Nicholas”, not because he is the spouse of the Governor, but because he was knighted himself for his services to local government. This happened in 1976, long before his wife became Governor. If he wasn’t knighted he would be just plain Nicholas Shehadie, addressed as “Mr Shehadie” or “Nick”, depending on how well you know him. The appointment of his wife as governor would not alter his title or mode of address in any way. Because her husband is a knight, the Governor may use the title “Lady Shehadie”. But, in practice, she never does. Even if she did use that title, as a Governor she would still be addressed as “Your Excellency” or “Ma’am”. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/23 "2011-08-30T03:44:05Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Knights and Dames are not royalty. Nor even of the nobility strictly speaking, at least in the British Isles. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/24 "2011-08-30T09:40:52Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’ve always just used “Dear Firstname Lastname” for all parties, and that’s worked fine for me. I can’t imagine why anyone would object. Except that doesn’t work for knights/dames, peers and royalty, if you’re following protocol. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/25 "2011-08-30T10:13:44Z")
Meh, plenty of Americans use titles, especially titles that denote (not just imply) differences in social standing. If I addressed my flight commander as “Hey you with the shiny shit all over his hat!”, I’d be in a world of hurt. Hell, I’m expected to salute foreign officers of nations that we’re not fighting with (which, at the moment, would be almost all of them, point of interest). Anyhow, I believe that Americans being willfully ignorant assholes is a screwy concept that generally shouldn’t be encouraged. ---
**Author:** ![postcards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e8cbc/32.png) [@postcards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postcards)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/26 "2011-08-30T12:36:22Z")
> [@j66](#): > > I’m pretty sure the queen can knight whom ever she pleases. That whole royalty thing. But I will graciously defer to evidence to the contrary. [Here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom#Honorary_awards) > [@](#): > > Citizens of countries which do not have the Queen as their head of state sometimes have honours conferred upon them, in which case the awards are “honorary”. In the case of knighthoods, the holders are entitled to place initials behind their name but not style themselves “Sir”.[20] Examples of foreigners with honorary knighthoods are Billy Graham, Bill Gates, Bob Geldof, Bono and Rudolph Giuliani, while Arsène Wenger and Gérard Houllier are honorary OBEs. Honorary knighthoods arise from Orders of Chivalry rather than as Knights Bachelor as the latter confers no postnominal letters. The Queen is not the head of state in the US, so no actual knighthoods, only honorary. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/27 "2011-08-30T14:59:33Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > _Never_ use Sir or Dame with a surname alone under any circumstances. Either use both given name and surname or given name alone. And if they’re holder of a government position, don’t address them (in any way) as Sir Governor or whatever. There is a street near us, “Sir Viceroy”. Which is the dumbest street name ever. You would never have Sir Viceroy (unless the poor fellow’s parents named him Vicerow Throatwarbler-Mangrove or something). You might have Sir John, Viceroy of Somethingstan. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/28 "2011-08-30T15:23:51Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > And if they’re holder of a government position, don’t address them (in any way) as Sir Governor or whatever. There is a street near us, “Sir Viceroy”. Which is the dumbest street name ever. You would never have Sir Viceroy (unless the poor fellow’s parents named him Vicerow Throatwarbler-Mangrove or something). You might have Sir John, Viceroy of Somethingstan. I could have sworn that I have heard the usage “General Sir Arthur Goodbody” in some English war movie. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/29 "2011-08-30T15:54:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I could have sworn that I have heard the usage “General Sir Arthur Goodbody” in some English war movie. For military, ecclesiastical and academic titles and the like it pretty much works if you consider “Sir Arthur” together as being the addressees first name. Incidentally, the current Lord Chief Justice (head of the judiciary in England and Wales) revels in the full name and title of The Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge. His birth name was Igor Judge, and he was made a Baron. A fine example of nominative determinism. ---
**Author:** ![isaiahrobinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@isaiahrobinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/isaiahrobinson)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/30 "2011-08-30T16:05:43Z")
The businessman Mr. Alan Sugar was knighted about ten years ago: when he became the boss on the TV show The Apprentice he became ingrained in the public consciousness as “Sir Alan”, so it confused everyone for a while when Gordon Brown then made him a Lord, in a fairly desperate political stunt, changing him to “Lord Sugar”. ---
**Author:** ![HawksPath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f07891/32.png) [@HawksPath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawksPath)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/31 "2011-08-30T16:24:33Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Anyhow, I believe that Americans being willfully ignorant assholes is a screwy concept that generally shouldn’t be encouraged. Not using titles show’s respect to the “all men are created equal” statement in the US Declaration of Independence. Military rules are different. It would not be improper to for a civilian to refer to a military officer in the appropriate Mr., Mrs., etc. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/32 "2011-08-30T17:05:35Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Knights and Dames are not royalty. Without royalty there would be no one to grant titles. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/33 "2011-08-30T17:17:05Z")
> [@HawksPath](#): > > Not using titles show’s respect to the “all men are created equal” statement in the US Declaration of Independence. This may be your personal view, but a blanket refusal to acknowledge such titles is most definitely not the practice endorsed by any reputable source of American protocol or etiquette. For example, “Protocol: The Complete Handbook of Diplomatic, Official and Social Usage,” which is one of the authoritative texts frequently used in determining how people should refer to each other in official contexts, devotes several pages to how to address knights, royalty, members of the Peerage, and so on; going into such details of how dukes should be addressed as Your Grace, viscounts as Lord (firstname), and so on. You’re perfectly free to adopt whatever manners of address you please, but there is no such broadly accepted custom as to what you are asserting. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/34 "2011-08-30T17:44:11Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Without royalty there would be no one to grant titles. The French still maintain an honours system, with rankings based on what looks to me like a chivalric (is this a word?) system. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/35 "2011-08-30T17:46:56Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > a chivalric (is this a word?) system. Chivalric is a word, but in English I think the accurate term is “feudal system.” ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/36 "2011-08-30T17:55:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Chivalric is a word, but in English I think the accurate term is “feudal system.” D’oh, that’s what I was reaching for :smack: Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/37 "2011-08-30T17:57:16Z")
> [@HawksPath](#): > > Not using titles show’s respect to the “all men are created equal” statement in the US Declaration of Independence. > > etc. Certainly your own politicians and diplomats think differently. Your president uses peoples’ titles. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/38 "2011-08-30T18:27:27Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > The French still maintain an honours system, with rankings based on what looks to me like a chivalric (is this a word?) system. If you’re thinking of the Légion d’Honneur, there’s nothing feudal about it. The people who hold the title are indeed called “Knights of the Legion of Honour” (and “Commanders” for the higher ups), but they have exactly zero added social influence, they aren’t given demesnes to lord over (more’s the pity - I’d kinda like to see Céline Dion rule Sarcelles with an iron fist :p) or anything like that. I think the highest rank does come with a stipend from the State, to the tune of ~60 euros per annum. Enough to have a beer on France’s tab, not enough to have people to do it for you :). Basically, it’s just a tin medal awarded to say “splendid job, old boy, now let the young’uns do it, yes ?” However, I think we do still recognize honest to god titles of nobility on paper - that is to say, nobles have the (exclusive ?) right to call themselves viscount this and baron that, and the State recognizes it if you can document it. Of course, whether that last of privileges brings them more honour than ridicule is debatable 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/39 "2011-08-30T18:29:49Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Without royalty there would be no one to grant titles. I don’t think we can take that as read, as **Baron Greenback** points out. But my point remains - knights and dames are not royalty and the title is best considered as an honour given for achievment, public service and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234/40 "2011-08-30T18:49:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > If you’re thinking of the Légion d’Honneur, there’s nothing feudal about it. The people who hold the title are indeed called “Knights of the Legion of Honour” (and “Commanders” for the higher ups), but they have exactly zero added social influence, they aren’t given demesnes to lord over (more’s the pity - I’d kinda like to see Céline Dion rule Sarcelles with an iron fist :p) or anything like that. I think the highest rank does come with a stipend from the State, to the tune of ~60 euros per annum. Enough to have a beer on France’s tab, not enough to have people to do it for you :). > > Basically, it’s just a tin medal awarded to say “splendid job, old boy, now let the young’uns do it, yes ?” To be honest, that’s the same with British honours too, minus the stipend. (The different ranks in the French system are the same as in the British knighthoods, I’m guessing we got it from you lot way back) The extra social influence is debatable at best. It’s probably easier to book a table at certain restaurants? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-correct-way-to-address-a-knighted-person-directly-and-how-to-refer-indirectly/594234.md?page=3)