# What is the crime novel with the most complicated plot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2005, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341 "2005-09-19T10:49:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Xarote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c67d28/32.png) [@Xarote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xarote)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/1 "2005-09-19T10:49:38Z")
Would it be one of Agatha Christie’s? Also, I ask the same question for crime movies. I suggest Memento. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/2 "2005-09-19T11:40:18Z")
The Godfather is a crime novel/film. Pretty dense, too. Memento has a complicated structure, but a pretty straightforward plot. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/3 "2005-09-19T12:01:00Z")
Ed McBain’s “Downtown” and “Money, Money, Money” are both very complicated. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/4 "2005-09-19T12:05:57Z")
“The Big Sleep” ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/5 "2005-09-19T12:07:40Z")
Easy, Raymond Chandler’s _The Big Sleep_. Almost impossible to follow but that doesn’t matter to me, at all. What really matters is the gritty imagery and poetry of sleaze. This is a good thing, as legend has it when Howard Hawks (director of the 1946 movie adaptation) called Chandler to ask who the hell killed the chauffeur, Chandler reportedely replied “how the hell should I know? You figure it out” and then hung up. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/6 "2005-09-19T12:58:55Z")
_The Big Sleep_ is really a series of separate novelettes that Chandler loosely strung together to make a full-length novel. It doesn’t hold together because they weren’t conceived as one narrative. My nominee would be one of the Ellery Queen or John Dickson Carr novels from the Golden Age. Queen’s _The Egyptian Cross Mystery_ involves four murders with headless corpses, so that the identities of the murderer and murderees become hopelessly enmeshed. Carr’s impossible crime books are the best of their sort ever written. _The Three Coffins_ is so complicated that Carr actually takes a chapter off to give The Locked Room Lecture detailing all the ways a murder can be committed in a seemingly locked and watched room. You’re still fooled by the ending. If you don’t want coherence, then there’s [Harry Stephen Keeler](http://staff.xu.edu/~polt/keeler/story.html). > [@](#): > > Keeler’s early work developed and perfected the concept of the “webwork plot,” in which several strings of outrageous coincidences and odd events end in a surprising and utterly implausible denouement. > > _elsewhere_ > > What is Keelerian writing like? Here’s a sample from the first few pages of The Riddle of the Traveling Skull (1934), one of Keeler’s more popular efforts: > > > [@](#): > > > > For it must be remembered that at the time I knew quite nothing, naturally, concerning Milo Payne, the mysterious Cockney-talking Englishman with the checkered long-beaked Sherlockholmsian cap; nor of the latter’s “Barr-Bag” which was as like my own bag as one Milwaukee wienerwurst is like another; nor of Legga, the Human Spider, with her four legs and her six arms; nor of Ichabod Chang, ex-convict, and son of Dong Chang; nor of the elusive poetess, Abigail Sprigge; nor of the Great Simon, with his 2163 pearl buttons; nor of–in short, I then knew quite nothing about anything or anybody involved in the affair of which I had now become a part, unless perchance it were my Nemesis, Sophie Kratzenschneiderwümpel–or Suing Sophie! ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/7 "2005-09-19T13:15:37Z")
Dorothy Sayers has some mystery novels with very complicated plots. As in, you feel like you are being invited to whip out a pad and paper and work it like a logic puzzle. _The Nine Tail\*\*ors_ has some complicated theme about playing music on church bells. There is another, I think it’s _Five Red Herrings_, that has all these train timetables in it. And they all work out in the end, unlike Chandler. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/8 "2005-09-19T13:27:48Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Carr’s impossible crime books are the best of their sort ever written. _The Three Coffins_ is so complicated that Carr actually takes a chapter off to give The Locked Room Lecture detailing all the ways a murder can be committed in a seemingly locked and watched room. You’re still fooled by the ending. Really? I am most definitely going to read that. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/9 "2005-09-19T13:32:11Z")
Not sure if these count since they are historical fiction with mysteries in them, but: - The Name of the Rose - a code embedded into heart of the mystery - An Instance of the Fingerpost - told through 4 narrators, 3 of whom, we learn in later sections, may not have all the facts or may be mis-representing their interests… ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/10 "2005-09-19T13:38:58Z")
It’s not really what the OP asks for, but you might consider this – I watched Anthony Schaffer’s play **Sleuth** , and his mystery writer protagonist Andrew Wyke makes a reference to “The Poisoned Chocolates Case” – “It’s practically a textbook on the matter,” he says, “A _tour-de-force_ with six separate solutions.” I thought he was making it up, but years later I stumbled across a copy, and had to read it. (the mysteries referred to in Sleuth all are real, and worth looking into, it turns out) It’s a 1929 book by Anthony Berkeley, and well worth ther read. It actually has _seven_ solutions (although one is a sort of duplicate), and is really a sort of textbook on the kinds and nature of evidence. The first couple of solutions aren’t very convincing, but the leter ones are more involved and impressive. The novel, by the way, uses the format of a “club of detectives”, eacj of whom contributes a solution. I once saw something like this in a 1960s Batman comic, which I now realize must’ve been paying an _hommage_ to Berkeley. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Poisoned\_Chocolates\_Case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poisoned_Chocolates_Case) ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/11 "2005-09-19T13:46:11Z")
I’d have to rank James Ellroy’s \*L.A. Confidential \* and \*American Tabloid \* up there too, as far as complicated plots go. ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/12 "2005-09-19T14:11:05Z")
> [@Hodge](#): > > Easy, Raymond Chandler’s _The Big Sleep_. I actually read _The High Window_ first, and later found _The Big Sleep_ to be a cakewalk by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/13 "2005-09-19T15:09:17Z")
I’m not sure this is exactly what you’re after, but almost all of Ross MacDonald’s Lew Archer mysteries involve a series of seeming coincidences or unrelated events resulting in a murder, and in order to find the thread that relates the unrelated events he has to solve a crime that occurred decades earlier, generally within the lifetime of several of the current protagonists. Often he’s investigating both crimes simultaneously so it can get really complicated, and generally the key to solving the crime lies in unearthing the real identities or relaitonships of the current set of characters/suspects. It’s not the same thing as a formal logic problem as in a locked room mystery, but it’s still fascinating to watch it unfold. ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/14 "2005-09-19T16:02:59Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > I’d have to rank James Ellroy’s \*L.A. Confidential \* and \*American Tabloid \* up there too, as far as complicated plots go. I was just popping in to see if anyone had mentioned Ellroy. That’s some serious convalutin’ there. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/15 "2005-09-19T17:06:55Z")
**CalMeachem** , Anthony Berkeley, who also wrote as Frances Iles, is probably the most important and influential author of the Golden Age that nobody remembers today. He’s not easy to find, but all his books are well worth it. _The Poisoned Chocolates Case_ is more of a stunt than a real novel, but if you liked it you’ll probably love Leo Bruce’s _Case for Three Detectives_. In it, the case is “solved” three times in his own distinct way by parodies of Lord Peter Wimsey, Hercule Poirot, and Father Brown, while Bruce’s “hick” Sergeant Beef keeps saying “But I know who done it.” And does. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/16 "2005-09-19T17:13:38Z")
> [@](#): > > CalMeachem, Anthony Berkeley, who also wrote as Frances Iles, is probably the most important and influential author of the Golden Age that nobody remembers today. He’s not easy to find, but all his books are well worth it. [ Why _do_ you assume that I don’t know what I’ve just written about? I do appreciate the suggestions. I’ll look up Leo Bruce, of whom I havent heard. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/17 "2005-09-19T17:33:25Z")
> [@Harriet the Spry](#): > > Dorothy Sayers has …another, I think it’s _Five Red Herrings_, that has all these train timetables in it… Wasn’t that a Monty Python sketch? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/18 "2005-09-19T17:58:42Z")
When I read the OP, _The Big Sleep_ sprung to mind. What about _Mullholland Drive_? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/19 "2005-09-19T18:12:16Z")
_The Big Sleep._ Nobody knows who killed the chauffeur, including the author. But that’s less a factor of the plot being confusing as it is the book not really being about plot; it’s about mood, and corruption, and despair. And it has the best opening pages I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341/20 "2005-09-19T19:02:23Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Why _do_ you assume that I don’t know what I’ve just written about? I was expanding on what you wrote for the sake of others who probably don’t know. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-crime-novel-with-the-most-complicated-plot/322341.md?page=2)