# What is the current state of the Hell's Angels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 16, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376 "2004-07-16T05:36:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/41 "2004-07-17T18:09:39Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Do the murders and robberies stem mainly from the drug trade? If so it might be useful to think of these crimes as part of a general criminal issue, or a drug issue, and not necessarily a 1% biker issue. > > Oh, is “crowns” Canadian for "federal D.A.? You are Canadian, right? Yes, the violence stems primarily from the drug trade. Although Hell’s Angels also runs prostitution rings and hijacks freight, the big problem is the violence due to their involvement in the drug trade. The drug trade in Canada is not controlled by outlaw bikers, but outlaw bikers are the primary players. Yes, a crown attorney is a prosecutor. We have both provincial and federal crowns/prosecutors. Provincial for offences such as assault, armed robbery and murder, and federal for dealing drugs. ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/42 "2004-07-17T20:01:45Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Mostly we _are_ recreational riders - don’t say that like it’s a bad word. Mostly we want to ride when we want to, do what we want to do, be left alone, and not have to worry about where we’re gonna get parts. So the Angels get money from copyrights. Smart dudes! So what’s with the violent horseshit? I read Hunter Thompson’s “Hell’s Angels” which was pretty enlightening. The 60s counterculture fell in love with them as outsiders, got in cozy with them, and basically got fucked. There’s a hilarious point in the book when Alan Ginsberg delivers a long, poetic, heartfelt missive to the Angels, asking them not to become violent at an upcoming generation. He went to bat for 'em. They just tore the place up, anyway 😉 It took the hippies awhile to realize that the Angels didn’t share their values; basically, they ride, they have their group identity, which they fight for. They hang out in bars, work on their bikes, get in fights, and generally put on a colorful image for the rest of the world. They don’t have a philosophy; even the big guys like Barger aren’t particularly articulate or rational. So, who knows. I consider 'em a relic, and not a particularly nice group to have around. Some deal drugs, most are involved in at least petty crimes from time to time. Oh, and they ride Harleys…live to ride they may, but they also live to get passed by every other bike out there. So, in conclusion, i have no idea what I’m getting at. But I think the Hell’s Angels are kind of a silly throwback. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/43 "2004-07-18T00:09:58Z")
In Quebec a couple of years ago the head of Quebec’s Hell’s Angels, Mom Boucher, was convicted for double murder - - a female prison guard and a male prison guard. Just a couple of innocent folks doing their jobs who Hell’s Angels put a hit on. Further arrests in the matter are ongoing, including that of his confidante Fon Fon Fontaine, who of course is a Hell’s Angel Member. Meanwhile, raids on Hell’s Angels’ bunkers continue to result in the seizure of large amounts of drugs and cash, and of course the arrest of Hell’s Angels members and wannabees. (The most recent of which I am aware was in Trois Rivieres a couple of months ago.) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/44 "2004-07-18T00:19:35Z")
It is really quite remarkable how Hell’s Angels will murder innocent people for the most trivial of reasons. For example, when a Calagary city councillor tried to stop Hell’s Angels from building a clubhouse, the head of the Calgary Hell’s Angels tried to blow him up. A conviction followed. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/45 "2004-07-18T00:25:50Z")
> [@occ](#): > > So what’s with the violent horseshit? > > I read Hunter Thompson’s “Hell’s Angels” which was pretty enlightening. In Quebec, Le Journal’s reporter Michel Auger has done some remarkable work at exposing Hell’s Angels and the Rock Machine. Of course he was shot for his efforts (he lived despite five bullets). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/46 "2004-07-18T01:29:46Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Here in Ontario there has only been one bombing of which I am aware. Just to clarify, that is one bombing regarding the wars between the bike gangs. There have been other bike gang bombings in Ontario that were not related to the bike gang wars. For example, in my town Satan’s Choice (which was taken over by Hell’s Angels) blew up the home of a fellow they did not like. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/47 "2004-07-18T01:29:49Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Remember, the Hell’s Angels started out as post WW II PTSD afflicted (though we didn’t know it was PTSD back then) disaffected dropouts of life. Interestingly, the Hells Angels’ own site linked above by **Dog80** has a history page that, while not really providing much history of the HAMC, goes to some length to at least give the impression that they dispute what they call the myth of their military lineage. > [@](#): > > This myth has been aided by incorrect reporting by authors who deemed it appropriate to align the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club (HAMC) with ex-service members returning from a war where excitement and adventure had become their lifestyle. Since the site doesn’y really offer much HAMC history, it’s hard to say who the early members were. The Fontana, California police department might have some info. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/48 "2004-07-18T13:56:56Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Think about this: did the Hell’s Angels ever take $300 out of your paycheck? > > I’d rather pay protection money to the Mafia than have a confiscatory income tax. And paying taxes to support the entire infrastructure of a society, including schools, roads, Medicare, Social Security, police, fire, public works, defense, etc is equivalent to paying off worthless criminal scum under the threat of death…how? ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/49 "2004-07-18T15:06:37Z")
But you’re paying for a _service_! The service of being shaken down? Where would society be with nobody shaking down anybody else for money under vague threats of violence? Seriously, the Mob-ey mentality of “Oh, but they make the neighborhood safer!” is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/50 "2004-07-18T19:32:06Z")
> [@occ](#): > > Seriously, the Mob-ey mentality of “Oh, but they make the neighborhood safer!” is stupid. Totally agree with you on that one. [anecdote]There was a bunker from a rival outlaw bike gang in my neighbourhood. They, obviously, were in charge of the drug trade in the area. When the Hell’s decided they wanted to control the drug trade in my area, they figured the best way to do that was to torch the bars that wouldn’t go along with them. They torched one about 200 feet away from my place a Sunday night around 3 AM.[/anecdote] ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/51 "2004-07-20T04:55:32Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Funny how outlaw biker gang members are the first to demand fair treatment by the authorities (and which in fact they receive), yet they are not willing to play society’s rules themselves. > > Convictions are based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Surveillance is based on probable cause. That’s not harassment. That’s proper law enforcement. > > There is a world of difference between voluntary, deliberate association in a major criminal organization, and being born into a particular race or culture. Suggesting that proper law enforcement against criminal biker gangs is akin to racism does not hold water. **Muffing,** I don’t have any problem with anything you say. Nothing. Except not everywhere are biker gangs “criminal biker gangs.” I can’t speak for where you live, but I can say, “If they’re criminals, STOMP 'EM!” If they’re non-criminal bikers, leave them alone. In Georgia, USA, we bikers were harassed by law enforcement unjustly. In Connecticut we couldn’t cross a town line without being pulled over. Here in Hawaii it ain’t so bad. Everywhere is different. Prosecute criminals. If all bikers are criminals, well, then, what can I say? Except that it seems unlikely. Snake ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/52 "2004-07-20T09:47:16Z")
> [@Ringo](#): > > Interestingly, the Hells Angels’ own site linked above by **Dog80** has a history page that, while not really providing much history of the HAMC, goes to some length to at least give the impression that they dispute what they call the myth of their military lineage. > . Sadly for those interested in such things, the Berdoo (Fontana) chapter is one of the ones that doesn’t have its own website unlike many of the chapters. I’d say the history page mentioned above is at odds with Barger’s own story; he was too young to be a WWII vet himself, but he did do a stint (underage) in the army, and many of the early Oakland members appear to have been vets. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/53 "2004-07-20T10:08:05Z")
This week’s Globe and Mail is doing a series on the Angels and their control of the illegal drug trade in Canada. www.globeandmail.ca Apparently there are about 500 full members across the country, with about half that many prospects and hangers-on. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/54 "2004-07-20T10:31:49Z")
> [@detop](#): > > [anecdote]There was a bunker from a rival outlaw bike gang in my neighbourhood. They, obviously, were in charge of the drug trade in the area. When the Hell’s decided they wanted to control the drug trade in my area, they figured the best way to do that was to torch the bars that wouldn’t go along with them. They torched one about 200 feet away from my place a Sunday night around 3 AM.[/anecdote] Eh. That’s nothing. I used to live about 1 km away from one of the Rock Machines’ safe houses. The Hells tried to blow up the building. The blast was so strong I thought it was an earthquake at first; the house literally shook. There was broken glass for a 200 m radius around the blast spot. (Miraculously, no one died, not even the RM members inside the house. Apparently, the HA know how to make big bombs, they just don’t know how to plant them properly, thank god.) ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/55 "2004-07-20T10:58:21Z")
The Hells Angels are still very (in the bad way) in NZ. Black Power and Hells Angels are very big in the drug trade. Oddly enough they all met to oppose P recently. [http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3576484&thesection=news&thesubsection=general&thesecondsubsection=](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3576484&thesection=news&thesubsection=general&thesecondsubsection=) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/56 "2004-07-20T14:25:07Z")
I lived on Egerton St. in London, Ontario, a few doors down from the Outlaws’ clubhouses. Hell’s Angels moved into town, and the usual violence ensued. Fortunately, I had moved before the open street gun battles took place. One month after the worst gun battle, the Outlaws brought in some Bandidos from Texas for a confrontation at the Hell’s Angels’ “motorcycle show” a ittle further up the street at the fairground, which backed on my girlfriend’s business. The showdown was between 120 Outlaws and Bandidos and 110 Hell’s Angels and Jackals. Police intervened and sent the Outlaws packing, and the city prohibited Hell’s Angels from holding another “motorcycle show.” The Hell’s Angels “motorcycle show” promoter claimed that **“Law enforcement targeting the Hell’s Angels in Ontario are nothing more than discrimination . . . . If I was black or wore a turban, my pockets would be lined with gold and civil suits. But I’m just a poor-white-trash biker.”** (The Globe and Mail reported that he owned a Harley, a van, a Mercedes, and a house an barn on 81 Acres. [http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040717/CENTRE17//?query=A+tale+of+two+cities](http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040717/CENTRE17//?query=A+tale+of+two+cities) ) Open gun battles across my street, and an attempted rumble a couple of blocks up at my girlfirend’s business. And that Hell’s Angels piece of shit played the oh so oft’ repeated harassment card. As far as I am concerned, members of criminal biker gangs whining about being harassed are simply shedding crocodile tears. Asserting that Hell’s Angels is not a criminal organization is beyond the pale, and anyone who makes such an assertion is either incredibly ignorant of the facts, or is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/57 "2004-07-21T05:03:35Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > As far as I am concerned, members of criminal biker gangs whining about being harassed are simply shedding crocodile tears. Asserting that Hell’s Angels is not a criminal organization is beyond the pale, and anyone who makes such an assertion is either incredibly ignorant of the facts, or is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. They key word is \*\*\*criminal \*\* \* biker gangs. From your description, it seems that all your bikers are criminals. It ain’t that way everywhere, but it is that way lots of places. Like I said: PROSECUTE THE CRIMINALS! OJ Simpson got off a murder rap, essentially because he is black. Does that mean all blacks are murderers? **Muffin** , you got a built-in bias that I understand. The sooner _you_ understand it, though, the sooner you will be free, and just, and efficient. S ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/58 "2004-07-21T13:10:07Z")
Repeat and replay: > [@Muffin](#): > > Convictions are based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Surveillance is based on probable cause. That’s not harassment. That’s proper law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/59 "2004-07-21T13:15:35Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > OJ Simpson got off a murder rap, essentially because he is black. > Does that mean all blacks are murderers? > > **Muffin** , you got a built-in bias that I understand. > The sooner _you_ understand it, though, the sooner you will be free, and just, and efficient. > S Repeat and replay: > [@Muffin](#): > > There is a world of difference between voluntary, deliberate association in a major criminal organization, and being born into a particular race or culture. Suggesting that proper law enforcement against criminal biker gangs is akin to racism does not hold water. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376/60 "2004-07-21T13:17:19Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > They key word is \*\*\*criminal \*\* \* biker gangs. From your description, it seems that all your bikers are criminals. It ain’t that way everywhere, but it is that way lots of places. > S The question asked if Hells Angels still had a criminal element. The answer seems to be yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-current-state-of-the-hells-angels/255376.md?page=4)