# What Is The Deal With The "Scots-Irish"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 14, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836 "2009-02-14T17:25:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/1 "2009-02-14T17:25:18Z")
From what little I’ve read about the Scots-Irish in America, I get the distinct impression that they have not faired as well as other European-American groups have in terms of life outcomes. Although I could not find direct evidence of this, it does seem that a lot of the characteristics typically associated with the Scots-Irish are also associated with what some people call “white trash”, such as: Smoking Living in poverty Not having a college education Owning firearms Serving time in jail/prison Living in the South Living in rural communities Drinking heavily Doing meth (methamphetamine) Having a child out-of-wedlock Being a blue-collar worker/unemployed Getting married prior to your 23rd birthday Being obese Liking Elvis/Johnny Cash Consuming fried foods Being very religious (Pentecostal) Eating gravy with breakfast (biscuits) Drinking heavily sweetened beverages (coffee/tea) Is any of this accurate? If so, why are the Scots-Irish so different from other European-American groups? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/2 "2009-02-14T17:48:56Z")
It is, to what extent your stereotypes are true, almost certainly a function of geography and associated poverty. A large percentage of the Scotch-Irish that immigrated to the U.S. ended up in Appalachia, the Alleghenies and similar poor upland regions. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/3 "2009-02-14T17:54:42Z")
Not to throw ice water on a nice set of stereotypes, but before you swallow the whole concept of the white trash connections, consider this list: > **[List of Scotch-Irish Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scots-Irish_Americans)** > > This is a list of notable Scotch-Irish Americans, including both original immigrants who obtained American citizenship and their American descendants. The Scotch-Irish trace their ancestry to Lowland Scottish and Northern English people, but through having stayed a few generations in Ulster. This list is ordered by surname within section. To be included in this list, the person must have a Wikipedia article showing they are Scots-Irish American or must have references showing they are Scots-Iri... ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/4 "2009-02-14T18:46:03Z")
Now Senator Webb (D-VA), wrote a book about the Scots Irish called[\* Born Fighting\*](http://www.amazon.com/Born-Fighting-Scots-Irish-Shaped-America/dp/0767916891/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234637004&sr=8-1) that attempts to dispell some of the assertions in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/5 "2009-02-14T18:56:11Z")
Arthur Herman’s [How the Scots Invented the Modern World: The True Story of How Western Europe’s Poorest Nation Created Our World & Everything in It](http://www.amazon.com/How-Scots-Invented-Modern-World/dp/0609809997/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234637436&sr=8-3) has a section detailing how important the Scots-Irish immigrants were to the American Revolution. I didn’t even realize there were such a long list of stereotypes about the Scots-Irish. Mostly they were so successfully integrated into the country at an early point that they were the mainstream of America that other immigrants were compared to. There may be some Appalachian pockets of Scots-Irish that are doing poorly but my sense is that they are as successful as any other group of immigrants if not more so. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/6 "2009-02-14T20:09:31Z")
Thanks. I did some searching on James Webb and ran across this article of his in Parade magazine: [http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2004/edition\_10-03-2004/featured\_0](http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2004/edition_10-03-2004/featured_0) It seems to confirm nearly everything in my OP. > [@](#): > > the defining fabric of the South …nation’s working class…They came with nothing, and, for a complicated set of reasons, many of them still have nothing…NASCAR racing…moonshine runners…Appalachian Mountains…intensely religious people…probably the most anti-authoritarian culture in America, conditioned from birth to resist…tradition of disregarding formal education…Southern redneck…capacity for violence…culture founded on guns…He hauls our goods, grows our food, sweats in our factories ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/7 "2009-02-14T21:39:09Z")
I’ve never even heard of the Scots-Irish until now. Do they have something to do with Mel Gibson and that crazy Irish guy from “Braveheart”? They sure seem to produce some good music: Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash AND Hank Williams?! ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/8 "2009-02-14T21:39:49Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > I didn’t even realize there were such a long list of stereotypes about the Scots-Irish. Mostly they were so successfully integrated into the country at an early point that they were the mainstream of America that other immigrants were compared to. True. It’s hard to say _anything_ definitive about a group of 22 million people who are as thoroughly assimilated and interbred as anyone in the USA, and whose history in this country goes further back than just about any other non-Native American ethnicity. Being about 1/8 S-I myself, I’d hate for people to think that it was a synonym for iggerant slackjawed peckerwood. That makes about as much sense as stereotyping people with dark blond hair, or people who bite their lower lip when they thread a needle. Not that stereotyping is _ever_ a peachy keen thing to do, mind you; the S-I are just an extreme case of why it’s fallacious. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/9 "2009-02-14T22:27:27Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I’ve never even heard of the Scots-Irish until now. Do they have something to do with Mel Gibson and that crazy Irish guy from “Braveheart”? If I recall 9th grade history correctly, they were Scottish Protestants who were (forcibily?) resettled into northern Ireland by the British, in an attempt to quell Catholic rebelliousness. They moved to America in droves pretty much as soon as it was settled. I’ve seen them (us, actually) referred to as “the backbone of America”. The Parade article is weird. Yes, Appalachia has a lot of Scots-Irish and a lot of poor, but there are tens of millions of others living all over the place, especially in the East. They’re not a particularly insular cultural group - hell, I don’t know that they have a particular culture at this point other than generic “American”. They’ve been here too long to be anything but thoroughly integrated. ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/10 "2009-02-15T00:02:45Z")
My father’s family was Scots-Irish- they settled in the mountains of Western North Carolina. They did possess many of the stereotypical qualities listed, and I’m sure there are still a few back in the woods there chewing tobacco and hunting squirrel. When I was about 9, I spent the night with a distant cousin there, whose family still used an outhouse! When I awoke in the night and needed to go to the bathroom, I was instructed to go into her parent’s room to use the chamberpot, but I was too squicked out about her dad hearing me go pee that I just held it. I don’t imagine the sheer poverty and ignorance in some of those isolated hollers will disappear any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/11 "2009-02-15T00:59:52Z")
> [@Risha](#): > > If I recall 9th grade history correctly, they were Scottish Protestants who were (forcibily?) resettled into northern Ireland by the British, in an attempt to quell Catholic rebelliousness. They moved to America in droves pretty much as soon as it was settled. I’ve seen them (us, actually) referred to as “the backbone of America”. Many (most?) of their families would have been in Ireland for three generations. I dunno if that is “pretty much as soon as it was settled”. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/12 "2009-02-15T01:04:08Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Many (most?) of their families would have been in Ireland for three generations. I dunno if that is “pretty much as soon as it was settled”. I think \*\*Risha \*\*was referring to America being settled. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/13 "2009-02-15T01:11:06Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I think \*\*Risha \*\*was referring to America being settled. :smack: You’re absolutely right. It’s been a long day. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/14 "2009-02-15T01:23:36Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > From what little I’ve read about the Scots-Irish in America, I get the distinct impression that they have not faired as well as other European-American groups have in terms of life outcomes. Although I could not find direct evidence of this, it does seem that a lot of the characteristics typically associated with the Scots-Irish are also associated with what some people call “white trash”, such as: > Smoking > Living in poverty > Not having a college education > Owning firearms > Serving time in jail/prison > Living in the South > Living in rural communities > Drinking heavily > Doing meth (methamphetamine) > Having a child out-of-wedlock > Being a blue-collar worker/unemployed > Getting married prior to your 23rd birthday > Being obese > Liking Elvis/Johnny Cash > Consuming fried foods > Being very religious (Pentecostal) > Eating gravy with breakfast (biscuits) > Drinking heavily sweetened beverages (coffee/tea) > Is any of this accurate? If so, why are the Scots-Irish so different from other European-American groups? > > Thanks. This appalling piece of bigotry has a _ **factual answer** _? Thank god the Kennedy clan are polish! Sometimes there aren’t enough :rolleyes: in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/15 "2009-02-15T02:00:42Z")
> [@chacoguy420](#): > > Thank god the Kennedy clan are polish! Just for the record, the Kennedy family is Irish Catholic, not Scots-Irish. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/16 "2009-02-15T02:14:25Z")
Does anyone else find this a particularly good combination of User Name and Post? > [@Surreal](#): > > From what little I’ve read about the Scots-Irish in America, I get the distinct impression that they have not faired as well as other European-American groups have in terms of life outcomes. Most of the unfortunate ‘characteristics’ you list are directly related to poverty, but it is not my experiences that Scots-Irish have a higher lock on that than other sub-sets of the population. Furthermore, many of the items are obviously related, such as rural living and gun ownership, blue collar work/marriage before 23 with no college education, heavily sweetened beverages and obesity (see also: Poverty). The rest of your post just baffles me. Why do you equate blue-collar work with unemployment? One is employment, the other is not. Why are breakfast biscuits and gravy so much worse than pancakes and maple syrup? (In reference to ‘fairing well in life’; obviously, maple syrup tastes better.) How can you lump Johnny Cash and Elvis Costello together? I wouldn’t even lumped Cash and Presley together. Why do I sense when you talk about ‘fried foods’, you mean chicken and not shrimp? And your implied values astonish me. What is so terrible about a good blue collar job, living in the South, and getting married and/or starting your family when you are still young enough to recover from paying for the kids’ college before you retire? Or Elvis Presley, for that matter? None of the above describes me, and even I am offended by your post. (Possibly because I do appreciate Johnny Cash; I even stopped hate Joaquin Phoenix.) This country’s decisions to adopt policies that eventually ended in an economy that heavily supports service over production (and led to the education inflation crippling the middle class) is not the moral flaw of any of its citizens, much less one ethnic group. No wonder the South dislikes and mistrusts us … ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/17 "2009-02-15T05:08:37Z")
I was born in Scotland. I have lived in Northern Ireland. I came here as a wee lad. My Dad was a well respected member of the community and worked for over 3 decades in the public health area. Stonemasons from Scotland were instrumental in shaping this part of Ontario. Just about every remaining stone bridge and every remaining stone farm house were built by Scottish masons. We were (are) a proud lot who find no problem in working for our money. And why would we differ significantly from any other European country? Where is your cite? ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/18 "2009-02-15T05:19:45Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Not to throw ice water on a nice set of stereotypes, but before you swallow the whole concept of the white trash connections, consider this list: > > [List of Scotch-Irish Americans - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scots-Irish_Americans) > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Just for the record, the Kennedy family is Irish Catholic, not Scots-Irish. Thank you for fighting my ignorance; you are correct. By the by, _my_ family is Irish Catholic (Country Cork, Kingdom of Munster, etc.) That’s not my point; my point is that this thread puts out the false premise that there is a “deal” with the “Scots-Irish” as if that ‘fact’ was established in physical space and there was “Factual Answer” to the question. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/19 "2009-02-15T06:53:13Z")
The OP states his own problems: > [@](#): > > From what little I’ve read… > [@](#): > > Although I could not find direct evidence of this… The list that you have provided seems to be founded on false premises. For example, does this mean that Earle Palmer Halliburton (who once lived in rural West Tennessee and ate fried foods and biscuits and gravy) really didn’t go from blue collar work to founding Halliburton Oil? He was Scots-Irish. I quit smoking and I’ve never cared for Elvis. Does this mean that I can’t be poor and unsuccessful? I am for a ban on automatic weapons and handguns. Am I not Scots-Irish? Maybe you need to clarify your question. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836/20 "2009-02-15T09:08:29Z")
[Albion’s Seed: Four Four British Folkways in America](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-smiley/janes-bingo-award-for-m_b_37415.html) (from Smiley’s review) > [@](#): > > 1. Scots-Irish “New Light” Protestants from the Border Counties and Ulster to the Appalachian Backcountry, 1717-1775. Characteristics in both Britain and America: Mean as a snake and twice as quick…oh, excuse me. I am losing my judicious tone. Let me begin again. Scots-Irish immigrants from the northern parts of Britain and from Ulster were generally fleeing what was an increasingly archaic, warrior-based society. Most were tenant farmers or the tenants of tenants. As Irishmen and Scots, they had built up years of economic resentment and Celtic pride with regard to their English neighbors and landlords. The social arrangements of the Borders grew out of the constant warfare (1040-1745) between Scotland and England over who owned the borderlands (remember that the Act of Union that made Scotland part of England was only enacted in 1707). Men on both sides of the border were expected to be alert and aggressive, ready to fight at a moment’s notice. When the kings of England and Scotland weren’t fighting, local warlords were. Tenancy was based on the ability to fight, and the economy was primitive compared to other parts of England. Keywords: poverty and violence. The legal system relied on vengeance and the economic system relied on protection money. Through the 17th century, the Borders were “pacified”, which as we all know is actually a process of singling out the most independent warlords and putting them to death as an example to the others (gallows were placed on hilltops, so that the hanging bodies could be see from far and wide). Absentee English landlords also got rid of tenants by means of exorbitant rent increases (rack-renting), land enclosure, construction of new roads, and imposition of new laws. Throughout the 18th century, the Borderers came to America, more or less, as refugees from forced modernization (where have we seen that before?) Their religious beliefs were diverse on the surface, but shared an underlying intensity and tribal character–they were believers, simultaneously, in grace and sectarian conflict. As Fischer writes, “The North Britons brought with them the ancient border habit of belligerence toward other ethnic groups.” [p. 632] The Quakers would not allow them to settle nearby, and they moved west in Pennsylvania, then south through the Appalachians. Clannish, suspicious, well-armed, and believers in “bride abduction” (!) as a good method of courtship. In marriage, men dominant, women absolutely subservient, and wife beating considered normal. Rage a typical (if not desired) feature of child-raising; beatings common. Religion–“emotional, evangelical, and personal”, deeply informed by superstition as a method of folk wisdom for avoiding ever-present injury and death. You can see what I’m getting at. [Black Rednecks and White Liberals](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1397106/posts) > [@](#): > > Black identity has become a hot item in the movies, on television, and in the schools and colleges. But few people are aware of how much of what passes as black identity today, including “black English,” has its roots in the history of those whites who were called “rednecks” and “crackers” centuries ago in Britain, before they ever crossed the Atlantic and settled in the South. > > Saying “acrost” for “across” or “ax” for “ask” are today considered to be part of black English. But this way of talking was common centuries ago in those regions of Britain from which white Southerners came. They brought with them more than their own dialect. They brought a whole way of life that made antebellum white Southerners very different from white Northerners. > > Violence was far more common in the South – and in those parts of Britain from which Southerners came. So was illegitimacy, lively music and dance, and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery. All of this would become part of the cultural legacy of blacks, who lived for centuries in the midst of the redneck culture of the South. > > That culture was as notable for what it did not have as for what it had. It did not emphasize education, for example, or intellectual interests in general. > > Illiteracy was far more common among whites in the antebellum South than among whites in the North, and of course the blacks held in bondage in the South were virtually all illiterate. On into the early 20th century, Southern whites scored lower on mental tests than whites in other parts of the country, as blacks continued to do. > > Many aspects of Southern life that some observers have attributed to race or racism, or to slavery, were common to Southern blacks and whites alike – and were common in those parts of Britain from which Southern whites came, where there were no slaves and where most people had never seen anyone black. > > Most Southern blacks and whites moved away from that redneck culture over the generations, as its consequences proved to be counterproductive or even disastrous. But it survives today among the poorest and least educated ghetto blacks. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-the-scots-irish/485836.md?page=2)