Amen! That ought to clear up “the deal” to a fare-thee-well. Robert Redford would be proud – may even be.
Facinating reading, Sampiro - certainly a hell of a lot more detailed than 9th grade history.
For those who might not be from Pennsylvania like me, the “particularly not Germans” aside in his post refers to the huge population of Germans who settled in Pennsylvania. The “Pennsylvania Dutch”, for one, were more properly “Deutsch” (referring to Germans and Dutch).
Forgot to mention one thing: during the 1715 (James The Old Pretender) and 1745 (Bonnie Prince Charlie) rebellions, the Scots Irish in Ulster mostly sided with their Highland cousins in supporting the return of the Stuart Dynasty. When that didn’t end well, many thousands were forcibly exported to the New World, and often their families who weren’t forced to leave voluntarily came. (This is how one of my ancestral lines came here.)
Also, the Scots Irish had a major knack for backing the wrong horse: they sided with French against the English, the Stuarts against the Hanovers, some sided with the British in the Revolution (most didn’t). Many married with Indians and created a race of “half blood” chiefs and Indians (William McIntosh, Alexander McGillivray, William Weatherford, etc.) and got defeated fighting the U.S. government. The whole “Lost Cause” mentality was well established before the Civil War even started. (Add to the Scots Irish the French who’d run from Haiti/St. Domingue to the New World, and the descendants of Revolutionary Tories, and the white people with Indian ancestry, and they had a dose of “Lost Causes are wonderful” mentality as well as a "we’ve fought better armed/better equipped/larger forces for iffy causes in the past and always gotten our asses handed to us, so it’s just logic that this time when we fight a better armed/better equipped/larger force for an iffy cause we should win!"feeling.
Northeastern. And only six of them are still under British control.
Actually, quite a lot of them remained. The planters, to James’s great displeasure, did little to encourage them to leave because they needed the labour and rents.
In the 1970-80s northern loyalists allied themselves with apartheid South Africa and the white settlers in “Rhodesia”. Today their housing estates are littered with Israeli flags.
:smack: I knew that, I really did (hell, there’s a map right there) but made a typo.
Right, and the borders have changed on those six several times since the 17th century.
I was going to post to explain who the Scots-Irish were/are, but it’s been pretty well covered.
My paternal grandfather is from Tennessee and is primarily of Scots-Irish descent his family has been in the United States since colonial times (and consequently he has some other heritage, including possibly some Native American). My paternal grandmother is Irish Catholic, either her parents or grandparents emigrated from Ireland. My grandfather converted to Catholicism before marrying my grandmother (though it wasn’t a conversion of convenience, apparently he felt Catholicism was better at keeping him from sinning).
I didn’t even realize my Scots-Irish heritage growing up, I was aware of the Irish and Italian (my mother’s side), but I only learned of the Scots-Irish part (pretty much as large a percentage of my heritage as the other pieces) as a young adult.
I think there are several good points to be made from this. First of all, many Scots-Irish don’t think of themselves as such. Secondly, many Scots-Irish intermarried with other ethnicities. Finally, many of the people who continue to have a strong Scots-Irish identity (and haven’t intermarried as much) are the poorer, more isolated Scots-Irish. Really, something similar applies to many other ethnic groups in the United States, the Scots-Irish, having been here so long, just happen to be a strong example of this.
Probably because of St. Patrick’s Day, The History Channel aired a repeat of The Irish in America (1995) (TV) (narrated by Aidan Quinn) this past week or so. We DVR’ed it so I can’t verify the date. If you didn’t get to see it, watch for it to come around again.
Although the main focus is on the “Catholic Irish” there’s quite a bit on the Ulster Irish, Scots-Irish, or Scotch-Irish at the beginning.
An amusing factoid near the end of the program is that Butte Montana has taken over from Boston as the “most Irish city in the US.”
I thought of this thread when we saw it last night.
THIS, I emphasize, is most certainly wrong, wrong, wrong!!! :mad: Sawmill gravy is heaven! Maple syrup is just a sticky table waiting to happen. 
Extremely minor nitpick: Halliburton is not an oil company.
The Scots-Irish haven’t faired any worse than other ethnic groups in fact they have done quite well for themselves in many walks of life. Seventeen presidents of the USA are of Scots-Irish stock as well as many famous figures from America’s history. Check out this 1876 article in the New York Times for other notable Ulstermen: NYTimes article
As others have stated here many Scots-Irish refer to themselves as just Irish or just Scottish or simply American. In reality though there is thought to be upto 27 million americans with some Scots-Irish heritage.
As for liking Elvis / Johnny Cash, both these artists were Scots-Irish themselves!
Check out this Scots-Irish web page with loads of pictures, videos & info:
Scots-Irish / Ulster-Scots
Obama, whose genealogy was done back many many generations for a couple of magazines, has many Scots-Irish ancestors (the McCurrys, the McLemores, and probably other lines). I believe they were on his mother’s side.
I thought he was pure Irish, of the Kilkenny O’Bamas.
Oh my God, they’re Kil-kenny!
Rednecks like Elvis Costello?
You must get your maple syrup from Illinois, not New England.
Unless (heresy) you are referring to ‘pancake syrup’ shudder.
Highly recommend reading Deer Hunting With Jesus: Dispatches From America’s Class War by Joe Bageant.
From the inside front cover:
“A raucous mix of storytelling and political commentary, Deer Hunting with Jesus is Bageant’s report on what he learned by coming home. he writes of his childhood friends that work at factory jobs that are constantly on the verge of being outsourced; the mortgage and credit card rackets that saddle the working poor with debt … the ubiquitous gun culture – and where the left doesn’t get it; Scots Irish culture and how it played out in the young life of Lynddie England …”
Another book that vividly and accurately describes the connection between traditional Scots-Irish culture and today’s American rednecks is The Redneck Manifesto by Jim Goad.
Scots-Irish shouldn’t be confused with Irish Catholics that filled cities in the northeastern United States, or the Scottish that are so predominant in Canada.
Your just jealous!
Obligatory: Man who’s 1/16 Irish Proud of His Irish Heritage. 
[Surreal:
What Is The Deal With The “Scots-Irish”?
From what little I’ve read about the Scots-Irish in America, I get the distinct impression that they have not faired as well as other European-American groups have in terms of life outcomes. Although I could not find direct evidence of this, it does seem that a lot of the characteristics typically associated with the Scots-Irish are also associated with what some people call “white trash”, such as:
Smoking
Living in poverty
Not having a college education
Owning firearms
Serving time in jail/prison
Living in the South
Living in rural communities
Drinking heavily
Doing meth (methamphetamine)
Having a child out-of-wedlock
Being a blue-collar worker/unemployed
Getting married prior to your 23rd birthday
Being obese
Liking Elvis/Johnny Cash
Consuming fried foods
Being very religious (Pentecostal)
Eating gravy with breakfast (biscuits)
Drinking heavily sweetened beverages (coffee/tea)
Is any of this accurate? If so, why are the Scots-Irish so different from other European-American groups?
Thanks]
I was personally offended by the OP, found it racist and stereotyping, and I have both Scots (mainly) and Irish, Canadian background (Scots-Irish a possibility?). I score a four, almost five in the survey (I’ve never had a drinking problem, but alcoholism does run rampant in my family, so I’ll make it a 4.5). As stated by Zeldar, the wiki list of prominent and successful Scots-Irish people goes far in dispelling the myth of a predominantly negative picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scots-Irish_Americans. IANA doctor, scientist or nutritionist, etc. but I would like to offer some info about food and substance abuse issues referred to in the OP (smoking, drinking heavily, doing meth, being obese, consuming fried foods, eating gravy with breakfast [biscuits], drinking heavily sweetened beverages [coffee/tea]) as well as the aspect of serving time in prison, and how these may relate to ethnicity.
In the book, Food for Recovery, http://www.amazon.com/Food-Recovery-Joseph-Beasley-M-D/dp/0971565023 it’s put forward that “The body takes a severe beating during the years of alcoholism, drug addiction, and eating disorders, and there can be no full recovery without attending to the body’s needs”.
“Some ethnic groups…are particularly vulnerable to alcoholism. Even apparently ‘emotional’ disorders, such as depression and schizophrenia, seem to be more prevalent in certain areas and cultures than others”…”It is (the) subtle cellular aspects of our genetic inheritance that influence both our unique nutritional requirements and our susceptibility to addictions, obesity, anorexia, and many other diseases”.
“…(A)lcoholism (and depression seem) to be far more prevalent in certain northern countries – particularly in areas of northern Europe – than it is in more southern climes”. There was a gradual decrease in consumption of fatty acids, mainly derived from fish – and a replacement of these nutrients with processed sugar, refined flour and alcohol. “Researchers theorize that centuries of consuming a diet high in naturally occurring essential fatty acids…caused the people of certain seafaring areas (including Scandinavia, Norway, British Columbia and parts of Ireland) to lose the enzymes necessary to build EFA’s…from other fat sources”. With Industrialization came the, “…modern diet of highly refined and processed foods (and the)…natural dietary pattern was disrupted. When these people abandoned their natural dietary patterns, their bodies simply could not keep up…(t)his dietary shift was followed by a disease shift…(within) a decade or so of ‘modernization’ a host of diseases began to rear their ugly heads in areas that had once rarely known such troubles (among which are diabetes and) alcoholism. This problem was not limited to the first generation to experience the dietary shift…(i)t appears to have persisted in many individuals whose ancestors were from these areas…(i)f you are of Celtic Irish, Welsh, Scottish, or Scandinavian descent and in recovery from alcoholism or some other addiction, there is a good chance that you have unique EFA needs that are not being met…”.
A 1990 study found that genetic inheritance, and not environmental influences, was the predominant influence on weight and body mass later in life. The authors of Food for Recovery talk about ‘leaky’ intestinal lining conditions, part of an allergy/addiction cycle in those with eating disorders, which can lead to weight gain. Celiac disease is “…a small-bowel malabsorption disorder that results in mucosal inflammation, villous atrophy, and crypt hyperplasia, which occur on exposure to gluten, and clinical and histologic improvement (is seen) when gluten is withdrawn from the diet”. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050501/practice.html According to this article, Celiac disease occurs most often in Celtic populations. Further, “(t)he immunological impacts of food allergy/addiction are widespread, and they make themselves known in the form of repeated low-level illnesses, gastrointestinal problems, and ferocious cravings, Indeed, food craving – particularly for sweets and the various grains that are components of alcoholic beverages – have derailed many a budding recovery” .
On the subject of criminality and omega 3 deficiency, this study is enlightening: http://crimepsychblog.com/?p=1197
Omega-3, junk food and the link between violence and what we eat
On 17 October, The Guardian (UK) reported on research with British and US offenders that suggests nutritional deficiencies may play a key role in aggressive behaviour. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/oct/17/prisonsandprobation.ukcrime
[…] Demar has been taking part in a clinical trial at the US government’s National Institutes for Health, near Washington. The study is investigating the effects of omega-3 fatty acid supplements on the brain, and the pills that have affected Demar’s “miracle” are doses of fish oil. […T]he new research calls into question the very basis of criminal justice and the notion of culpability. It suggests that individuals may not always be responsible for their aggression. Taken together with a study in a high-security prison for young offenders in the UK, it shows that violent behaviour may be attributable at least in part to nutritional deficiencies.
The UK prison trial at Aylesbury jail showed that when young men there were fed multivitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids, the number of violent offences they committed in the prison fell by 37%. Although no one is suggesting that poor diet alone can account for complex social problems, the former chief inspector of prisons Lord Ramsbotham says that he is now “absolutely convinced that there is a direct link between diet and antisocial behaviour, both that bad diet causes bad behaviour and that good diet prevents it”.
Here’s an article on mood disorders and omega 3: The role of omega-3 fatty acids in mood disorders - PubMed
Five more articles re Bipolar Disorder – Omega 3, please see Pubmed
Here’s an article on other mental disorders and Omega 3: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7028146?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
The major psychoses and neuroses as omega-3 essential fatty acid deficiency syndrome: substrate pellagra.
Pellagra was once a major cause of three behaviorally different mental disorders-schizophreniform, manic-depressive-like, and phobic neurotic - plus drying dermatoses, autonomic neuropathies, tinnitus, and fatigue. In this preliminary study all three of the corresponding present-day mental diseases are found to exhibit, statistically, the same pellagraform physical disorders but to ameliorate not so much with vitamins as with supplements of a newly discovered trace omega-3 essential fatty acid (w3-EFA), which provides the substrate upon which niacin and other B vitamin holoenzymes act uniquely to form the prostaglandin 3 series tissue hormones regulating neurocircuits en block. Since present-day refining and food selection patterns, as well as pure corn diets, deplete both the B vitamins and W3-EFA , the existence of therapeutically cross-reacting homologous catalyst and substrate deficiency forms of pellagra are postulated, the first contributing to the B vitamin deficiency epidemics of 50-100 years ago, the second to the more recent endemic “Diseases of Western Civilization” which express in certain genetic subgroups as the major mental illnesses of today.
One of my psychiatrists told me several years ago (it had somehow come up in conversation) that alcoholism may be its own illness, or else it can be involved in the presentation of other mental illnesses (I believe this is called a “dual diagnosis” or some such name).
It is not my intention to make excuses for criminal behaviour, nor do I want to set up a victim scenario for anyone who could otherwise find it within him or herself to watch their diet and limit substance use/abuse. There has to be personal responsibility; but I think that genetically, as well as regionally, it may be more difficult for some than it is for others to get a grip on one’s own health. I believe that some characteristics mentioned in the OP may be challenges faced by Celtic peoples in general, not necessarily the Scots-Irish people. IOW, the predisposition for certain food and drug, even social problems, is more widespread and built up over time. Of course, there is also the aspect of geographic isolation that can make “life outcomes” more bleak.
This is what I think part of the “deal” is with the Scots-Irish.
I started doing genealogy research maybe five years ago, became hardcore for about a year and a half, and know a lot more about my ancestry now than I used to, such as the fact my family is roughly half English, a quarter Scots-Irish, a bit of German and Swiss, and the rest is wildcards (specifically Polish, Irish-Irish, and possibly Cherokee and or black way way back along the way). Until then I’d been to no telling how many Highland Games (there’s a fairly large one that convenes once a year walking distance from my house) or seen movies set in Scotland and had no idea I had any ancestral connection to Scotland.
I mention this not because of any geneaological pride or sense of belonging (while I find genealogy fascinating for the historical connection and insight I have no more sense of Scotland being home/Scots being cousins than I do of Siberia) but because I think most white Americans whose ancestors have been here any serious length of time are like me: we don’t really know what we are other than obviously European with vague rumors of “some Indian blood” (which isn’t nearly as common as people think and is almost impossible to document even if it is). While a surname beginning with Mac/Mc is usually indicative of Scottish heritage, it’s usually a LOOOOOOONG way off. (1725-1800 was was the great flood of Scots Irish immigration, 1690s-1725 was a steady flow, and the trickle began before the Restoration.) Most Scots Irish in America identify as white and Protestant with anything else pretty much incidental.
That said, in general white Protestants seem to be doing relatively well as a group. You got your rich ones, your poor ones, your stupid ones and your smart ones, your saintly ones and your evil ones, and most being somewhere in between the poles (especially if they live in the Midwest where the Poles are more numerous).
Please ETA quotation marks around fourth last paragraph in previous post. Thanks.