# What is the deal with this (US) military portrait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 27, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129 "2011-01-27T00:53:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/21 "2011-01-28T08:36:03Z")
Man, I just hate it when my dickey is grabbed and pulled off during fights. šŸ˜› > [@](#): > > \*Itā€™s not a scarf, itā€™s a thin adjustable strap of fabric that goes around the neck with a snap closure at the back. Stitched to that is a rectangle of fabric that hangs down in the front. Basically a dickey that will pull off if grabbed in a struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/22 "2011-01-28T09:11:30Z")
Some further questions about this type of uniform: 1. Would that uniform shown in the portrait be the typical everyday dress for an MP on a base? I donā€™t really know what time period the picture is from, but Iā€™m going to guess the 1950s. (ETA - actually, thatā€™s a Vietnam ribbon, isnā€™t it? Which would place the picture during Vietnam era, but Iā€™d guess early on. The uniform looks ā€œoldā€ to me.) Did MPs really look that spiffy during their day to day duties at that point in time? 2. Would white spats be worn over the boots, as shown [here?](http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7178/058mp7tz.jpg) Would the trousers be bloused into the boots? 3. Furthermore, the belts shown in the above link are white. But others I have seen are typical brown leather. Does anyone know what the regulation was concerning the color of the belts, and if it changed from white to brown at some point? Or vice versa? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/23 "2011-01-28T14:47:47Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Some further questions about this type of uniform: ā€¦ His ribbons show 3 tours (or years) in Viet Nam. So the photo probably dates from the late 60s to early 70s. That uniform would have been the typical outfit for somebody working guard duty in public in a non-combat zone, such as a gate guard at a Stateside facility. IIRC, the white spats went with a white belt. Heā€™s got a black to dark brown belt. I donā€™t know for sure, but itā€™s long been the habit of the DoD that there are multiple versiosn of the fancier uniforms in use at once. So the white belt/spat/accessories and the all dark brown accessories could easily have been in effect simultaneously for many years. ---
**Author:** ![Yeah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/dbc845/32.png) [@Yeah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeah)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/24 "2011-01-29T03:55:23Z")
If anyone is interested, it looks like his ribbons, in the order they are worn are: Distinguished Service Medal, Silver Star, Purple Heart, Good Conduct Medal, Vietnam Service Medal, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal, [Unknown - It should be a National Defense Service Medal and looks a little like a very badly drawn NDSM but current regulations give the NDSM precedence over the VSM and RVCM], Reserve Components Achievement Medal (which should be worn after the GCM and before the NDSM and the VSM and RVCM). ---
**Author:** ![BaneSidhe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BaneSidhe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaneSidhe)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/25 "2011-01-29T04:25:17Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > It looks like it might be a black and white photo thatā€™s been colorized. My MiL had several pictures of my BiL in his uniform colorized and they look exactly like the picture in question. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/26 "2011-01-29T10:54:59Z")
As was mentioned above, the rainbow patch is the insignia for the 42nd Infantry Division, formed up for service in World War I from many various different National Guard units from different states (to avoid concerns of favoritism), hence the rainbow, owing to the many different flags of the states the soldiers hailed from. Also, I thought the scarf was called a gorget? Is that only the case if itā€™s an actual piece of armor? As for some of the unusual flairsā€¦ well the Army likes to have a bit of flair on their uniform, with various little color-coded and job-specific things all over the place. Quite the contrast to the uniforms currently in fashion with the Air Force, which get more minimalistic every day (our service dress uniform looks like a business suit with rank insignia, and the only way you can wear unit insignia on any of your uniforms, unless you still have some of the old BDUs, is to be Aircrew and spend your day wandering around in fireproof pajamas. _mutter mutter_) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/27 "2011-01-29T17:49:16Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > As was mentioned above, the rainbow patch is the insignia for the 42nd Infantry Division, formed up for service in World War I from many various different National Guard units from different states (to avoid concerns of favoritism), hence the rainbow, owing to the many different flags of the states the soldiers hailed from. Also the inspiration for the name of the international counterterrorism unit in Tom Clancyā€™s book _Rainbow Six_. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/28 "2011-01-30T00:10:02Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Man, I just hate it when my dickey is grabbed and pulled off during fights. šŸ˜› Hah. šŸ˜› But seriously, thatā€™s not uncommon to do in some fields. Some hospital workers have break-away cords used for holding their ID, in case theyā€™re grabbed by it by a delusional/hostile patient or visitor. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/29 "2011-01-30T17:36:33Z")
> [@Yeah](#): > > If anyone is interested, it looks like his ribbons, in the order they are worn are: > Distinguished Service Medal, Silver Star, Purple Heart, Good Conduct Medal, Vietnam Service Medal, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal, [Unknown - It should be a National Defense Service Medal and looks a little like a very badly drawn NDSM but current regulations give the NDSM precedence over the VSM and RVCM], Reserve Components Achievement Medal (which should be worn after the GCM and before the NDSM and the VSM and RVCM). Not impossible but sounds a little weird. The DSM and Siver Star are very high combat awards (DSM can be awarded in peacetime but very rare and not to a SSG). The picture from MP school and this one both show the 42nd Infantry. A National Guard unit which did not see service in Viet Nam. So this guy would have had to go to MP school in the Guard, went active duty and became an important war hero during three tours, then went back to the Guard. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/30 "2011-01-30T17:41:03Z")
Damn missed the most obvious problem with it. The dude is wearing a Combat Infantry Badge. You can only get a CIB if you are infantry serving in combat as infantry. An MP can never ever receive a CIB. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/31 "2011-01-30T20:24:55Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Damn missed the most obvious problem with it. The dude is wearing a Combat Infantry Badge. You can only get a CIB if you are infantry serving in combat as infantry. An MP can never ever receive a CIB. How common was it to cross train back then? Could he have started in the regular Army as an Infantryman and then gone into the Guard as an MP? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/32 "2011-01-30T21:08:57Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > How common was it to cross train back then? Could he have started in the regular Army as an Infantryman and then gone into the Guard as an MP? Its possible. But the younger picture someone else linked to showed him graduating from MP school. In that he had no ribbons. Getting a CIB means he would have to be qualified 11B Infantry and then be in an infantry unit in combat. So he would have had to have gone to MP school and infantry school. And then MP before and after. And he was in a guard unit in both pictures. The NAtional Guard was not called up in significant numbers for various reasons to Viet Nam. The 42nd Infantry Division (which I have been a member of for over 10 years) was not called up. On top of that he is wearing a Distinguished Service Medal. A DSM is generally reserved for at least Colonels. Its an unfortunate reality that awards, especially for merit, are given out on the basis of rank. For a SSG or below to get a DSM he would have had to have done something spectacular and rare. Add to that a Siver Star and things are looking more unlikely. And he looked very young in the first picture. He would have looked like an infant during his three tours. It is possible that maybe he was on active duty in the infantry, served three tours, then went to MP school in the guard. It is possible he earned his medals before he went to MP school and for some unknown reason he was not wearing them in the earlier picture. It is possible that he earned the extremely high awards he was wearing. But my finely tuned bullshit detector and the fact that I have run into many fakers makes me look at it funny. Not enough to make me 100% sure he is wearing awards he didnā€™t earn but there is enough there for me to wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Yeah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/dbc845/32.png) [@Yeah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeah)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/33 "2011-01-30T21:36:33Z")
He is listed on this page: [http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1260.htm](http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1260.htm) It gives a short biography and includes this comment: ā€œseems strange to see an MP wearing a CIB. Also suspicious to see an E-6 with an Army Distinguished Service Medal, which further makes me wonder about the SS. NDSM is also out of orderā€ but there is nothing definitive. ---
**Author:** ![Yeah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/dbc845/32.png) [@Yeah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeah)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/34 "2011-01-30T22:50:28Z")
Apparently he served in the 504th MP Battallion which ā€œwas the only combat MP battalion (except for infantry MPs) operating in Vietnam, and until early 1967, the highway elements were eligible for the Combat Infantry Badge.ā€ > **[U.S. Army's B Company, 504th Military Police Battalion Patrolled Central...](https://www.historynet.com/us-armys-b-company-504th-military-police-battalion-patrolled-central-highlands-highways-during-the-vietnam-war/?f)** > > The B Company 'Roadrunners' of the 504th Military Police Battalion faced Viet Cong land mines and ambushes as they patrolled the notorious roads of the Central Highlands. Is there any way to get a list of Army DSM recipients? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/35 "2011-01-31T01:16:54Z")
> [@Yeah](#): > > He is listed on this page: [http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1260.htm](http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1260.htm) > > It gives a short biography and includes this comment: ā€œseems strange to see an MP wearing a CIB. Also suspicious to see an E-6 with an Army Distinguished Service Medal, which further makes me wonder about the SS. NDSM is also out of orderā€ but there is nothing definitive. I wouldnā€™t rule out the possibility that some of the ribbons were mis-colored during the process. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/36 "2011-01-31T02:10:46Z")
Thatā€™s what I was thinking too. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/37 "2011-01-31T05:09:56Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > ā€¦Also, I thought the scarf was called a gorget? Is that only the case if itā€™s an actual piece of armor?.. Iā€™ve never heard that called a gorget. As it happens, Wehrmacht military police during WW2 wore gorgets: [![](https://histclo.com/imagef/date/2008/06/wehr-pol01s.jpg) ](https://histclo.com/imagef/date/2008/06/wehr-pol01s.jpg) [http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user\_upload/f/feldgendarmerie-bridge.jpg](http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/f/feldgendarmerie-bridge.jpg) [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Feldgendarmerie_gorget.JPG) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Feldgendarmerie_gorget.JPG) As did this guy - George Somebodyorother - quite a bit earlier: [http://explorepahistory.com/images/ExplorePAHistory-a0h6a9-a\_349.jpg](http://explorepahistory.com/images/ExplorePAHistory-a0h6a9-a_349.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129/38 "2011-01-31T05:13:36Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Hah. šŸ˜› But seriously, thatā€™s not uncommon to do in some fields. Some hospital workers have break-away cords used for holding their ID, in case theyā€™re grabbed by it by a delusional/hostile patient or visitor. Same thing when I worked in prison. We only wore clip-on ties. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-deal-with-this-us-military-portrait/569129.md?page=1)