# What is the degree of Atheist responsibility to challenge belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707 "2012-09-14T17:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/221 "2012-09-18T19:26:12Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > World Peace > Then there wouldn’t be anything for beauty pageant contestants to wish for BZZZT! Try again. This time, focus on the word “equal”, and think just a bit about the imbalance between the two groups that has existed for many centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/222 "2012-09-18T19:31:34Z")
The cat and the mouse do not get along, but it is equally the fault of both, right? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/223 "2012-09-18T19:41:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The cat and the mouse do not get along, but it is equally the fault of both, right? I am not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole. Nice try baiting me though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/224 "2012-09-18T19:50:19Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I am not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole. Nice try baiting me though. > > 😃 I’m not baiting you. I’m pointing out that trying to place equal blame for such a lop-sided battle is disingenuous. It is an intregal part of some religions to spread, and throughout history “By Any Means Necessary” seemed to be the method to do so. _Very_ recently it has become possble in _some_ situations for atheists to have a voice, and this “conflict” bothers you? Tough. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/225 "2012-09-18T19:58:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you name any that targeted other religions but specifically left out atheism? If you’re in a race to be the biggest victim of religious persecution, you’ve got to stand behind at least the Jews, and probably a few others first. Go write a book about how you’re more persecuted than everyone else, and then impress everyone else with it. I’m sure other religious minorities who have also suffered from murder and rape and torture will stop whining when they read about it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/226 "2012-09-18T19:59:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The cat and the mouse do not get along, but it is equally the fault of both, right? It doesn’t matter. If you are wronged, the answer is not to go out and wrong someone else, it’s to stop the wrong, and speak out against it. Jeez, you’d think atheists would take that extra step and demand peace, instead of just jumping into the religious wars and swinging away like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/227 "2012-09-18T20:00:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If people tired of repeating themselves there wouldn’t be too many debate forums on the Internet. You can say that again. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/228 "2012-09-18T20:01:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If an equal number of atheists and religionists knocked it off, what do you think would happen? Hey, good point! Go kill as many religious people as you need to even it out, and then you can have peace! Yeah, that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/229 "2012-09-18T20:03:47Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You can say that again. You can say that again. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Hey, good point! Go kill as many religious people as you need to even it out, and then you can have peace! > > Yeah, that makes sense. It makes no sense and also bears no relation to what he was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/230 "2012-09-18T20:03:56Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It doesn’t matter. If you are wronged, the answer is not to go out and wrong someone else, it’s to stop the wrong, and speak out against it. Lance, you are supporting the OP here, right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/231 "2012-09-18T20:14:45Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Hey, good point! Go kill as many religious people as you need to even it out, and then you can have peace! > > Yeah, that makes sense. What the fuck are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/232 "2012-09-18T20:18:20Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Lance, you are supporting the OP here, right? Asked back in post #159-still no answer. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/233 "2012-09-18T21:58:41Z")
To be honest, I jumped in to this thread after 6 pages of posts. I did not take the time to read through the previous posts because I assumed it was the same proverbial pissing contest of who can outsmart who and make the other side feel more worthless or stupid. I can’t see how debating this does anyone any good, or why anyone gets satisfaction out of upheaving someone’s belief system. You can repeat over and over how religion is the basis for wars and death and dispute, but can you really say with all certainty that these things wouldn’t exist without religious belief? On the other hand, can a very religious person really say that someone is inherently evil if they do not believe in a god and that somehow a disbelief in god is detrimental to society? Where does anyone get by continuously debating and rehashing the same arguments for and against the belief in god (or gods or supernatural forces of any kind), when it all seems to be intrinsically cultural and sociological? If someone is atheist or religious and is a good person regardless I am not going to care one whit, and I do not think it is my place or duty to change them. If we all just thought that way then yes, I really do believe we would a lot happier, more peaceful, more tolerant, and kinder. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/234 "2012-09-18T22:12:15Z")
April R, because Christians wage a constant battle to force everyone to comply with their directives. Denying gays equal rights, forcing schools to teach creationism, allowing children to die of curable diseases because they refuse to allow transfusions or other medical intervention…the list is longer but there are a few highlights. To each his own is a happy idea, but so long as religious persons attempt to force everyone to follow their rules, there will be debate. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/235 "2012-09-18T22:22:21Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Do pushy religious or non religious people ever tire of hearing the same thing coming out of their mouths over and over again? Religion is intellectually sterile. It produces no new evidence, and seldom even any new arguments. Atheists keep making the same criticisms because the religious keep making the same bad arguments over and over. The religious do so because that’s the point of a religion, to propagate itself; they are just its hosts and reproductive vector. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/236 "2012-09-18T22:25:10Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > April R, because Christians wage a constant battle to force everyone to comply with their directives. Denying gays equal rights, forcing schools to teach creationism, allowing children to die of curable diseases because they refuse to allow transfusions or other medical intervention…the list is longer but there are a few highlights. To each his own is a happy idea, but so long as religious persons attempt to force everyone to follow their rules, there will be debate. My point is not that this stuff doesn’t happen. I know it does. But it is not solely done by religious people. Look at communism, look at a myriad other instances in which you have to be nit picky and blindly dogmatic in order to blame religion for atrocity. This post sums up what I can’t quite say as clearly: > [@](#): > > ``` > Much is said, today, on the issue of religious wars. Without question, religion has been (if only superficially) the banner of countless wars throughout history. Lists are often compiled, naming various instances of religious war (as, for example, this list). > > One might reasonably ask, however, whether or not there is a corresponding list of non-religious wars. After all, if religion is really good for nothing but “starting wars,” then surely its elimination would do away with, or at least considerably diminish, the perpetuation of warfare across the globe. > > Jack Perry has presented one such list of non-religious wars, as follows: > > 1.) The Seven Years’ War (Britain & France) > 2.)The American Revolution > 3.)The French Revolution > 4.)The Napoleonic Wars (France & Europe) > 5.)The Revolutions in the Americas > 6.)The Wars to create and preserve the British Empire (Boer War, Irish Revolution, and the Great Game with Russia would all be examples) > 7.)The American Civil War > 8.)The Crimean War > 9.)The Spanish-American War > 10.)The Great War, The War to End All Wars, or World War I (whatever you want to call it) > 11.)The Italian invasion of Ethiopia > 12.)The Spanish Civil War > 13.)Stalin’s invasions of Finland, the Baltic states, and Poland > 14.)World War II > 15.)The Chinese Revolution > 16.)The Cold War, including but not limited to the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, the American intervention in Grenada, and the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan > 17.)The Cultural Revolution in China (If you don’t want to call this a war I’ll concede it) > 18.)Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge Revolution > 19.)The Falklands War > 20.)The Persian Gulf War between Iran & Iraq > 21.)The Persian Gulf War between the United Nations and Iraq > The Breakup of Yugoslavia (beginning with Slovenia). > > Naturally, some of Perry’s points are debatable. For instance, there are some who hold that Nazism has certain occult roots (see, for example, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke’s book on the subject, “The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology.” So, in some sense, one might argue that World War II was, in fact, a religious war. The same cannot be said, however, of World War I. > > Obviously, the above list could not count very significant the Reign of Terror (French), which followed the French Revolution, as it was not, technically, a war, per se. Still, I think it is a point worth serious consideration. > > Of course, there are those who maintain Robespierre (who presided over the Reign of Terror) was actually religious, and an oppressor of atheists. Nevertheless, the fact remains that: > > “The French Revolution eradicated the Church root and branch. The Jacobin state was officially atheist, although Robespierre attempted to cover this fact with the fig leaf of ‘the Supreme Being’, which convinced nobody except maybe Robespierre himself. Although the people of France were supposed to be fervent Catholics, religion practically disappeared in France after the Revolution (except in the most backward and reactionary districts like the Vendée).” > ( http://www.marxist.com/marxism-religion-liberation-theology220701.htm) > > I am NOT, of course, suggesting, as some do, that atheism leads, ever and always, to anarchy, bloodshed, etc. I am merely endeavoring to establish that the religious are no more a danger to humankind than the irreligious. Or, to put it in other words, the irreligious are no less prone to senseless violence than the religious. > > ``` [http://de-conversion.com/2008/08/01/mythbusters-without-religion-there-would-be-no-war/](http://de-conversion.com/2008/08/01/mythbusters-without-religion-there-would-be-no-war/) ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/237 "2012-09-18T22:35:30Z")
History is a long time, so you would think that by now, after all those atrocities, misinformation and violations of human rights we would have learned to treat all people as equals, to respect scientific achievements, and to allow all people to benefit from modern medicine. What is holding us back? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/238 "2012-09-18T22:38:48Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Der Trish is right about one thing. Atheism is a direct threat to all religions. At least with the other religions, they are on the same page. They believe in God but just have conflicting versions, rules, laws, practices, etc.. It isn’t a threat to Buddhism. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/239 "2012-09-18T22:45:43Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Lance, you are supporting the OP here, right? No. The wrong is persecution or aggression for belief. The answer to it is not more persecution or aggression. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/240 "2012-09-18T22:47:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Religion is intellectually sterile. It produces no new evidence, and seldom even any new arguments. That’s not true at all. Even a non-believer can see that religion is constantly changing and full of new ideas. You can think they are all crap and still see that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=13)