# What is the degree of Atheist responsibility to challenge belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707 "2012-09-14T17:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/301 "2012-09-20T20:29:28Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > It all boils down to what you think God is (which is funny because you don’t even think there is a God so what qualifies you to discuss his attributes?) You don’t have to be a believer to discuss the attributes of gods in someone else’s scripture or religion. You can do pretty easily based on what people say and write and do regarding their gods. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/302 "2012-09-20T20:30:10Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > It all boils down to what you think God is (which is funny because you don’t even think there is a God so what qualifies you to discuss his attributes?) and what I believe He is. > > You can’t know that I believe he intentionally kills babies and mothers or that He “lets” them die, or whatever. What I believe and what you assume I believe are not the same thing. If you really want to know these answers and are REALLY open to discussion I can point you towards the resources I use. If you are just poking me with a proverbial stick and being contrary just to try to make a point, then what good does it do to even have a discussion in the first place? I am open to debate, but I would be wasting my time if you are going to say the same things over and over again. I don’t agree with you and I have given pretty darn good reasons why. You either accept my reasoning or you don’t. The End. I’m not interested in debating what you believe. That is not the subject of the OP. You must have mistaken this thread for the one titled ‘The all powerful all knowing God is only responsible for the good things in this world’. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/303 "2012-09-20T20:38:04Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I’m not interested in debating what you believe. That is not the subject of the OP. You must have mistaken this thread for the one titled ‘The all powerful all knowing God is only responsible for the good things in this world’. No, you are mistaken. I never said that, I never would. I was making the point that it is no more my place to try and convince an atheist they are wrong anymore than it is their place to do the same to me, mainly because what they assume I believe isn’t even correct. They make false assumptions about my religion and belief in order to justify what they think is their responsibility to correct me. That is awfully close to what religion is criticized for, saying it can save someone from some perceived incorrectness in their life and that offends many people. Dogmatic Atheists and religionists are exactly the same in that respect. I obviously am very strong in my beliefs, but even if I wasn’t it would be atrocious for someone to exploit a perceived weakness in my belief to push atheism on me. So my answer to the original post is that there is no degree of responsibility for an Atheist to challenge belief. Just let it go. Don’t be a pushy asshole. I’m not, and I expect the same in return. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/304 "2012-09-20T20:39:18Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > It all boils down to what you think God is (which is funny because you don’t even think there is a God so what qualifies you to discuss his attributes?) and what I believe He is. > > You can’t know that I believe he intentionally kills babies and mothers or that He “lets” them die, or whatever. What I believe and what you assume I believe are not the same thing. If you really want to know these answers and are REALLY open to discussion I can point you towards the resources I use. If you are just poking me with a proverbial stick and being contrary just to try to make a point, then what good does it do to even have a discussion in the first place? I am open to debate, but I would be wasting my time if you are going to say the same things over and over again. I don’t agree with you and I have given pretty darn good reasons why. You either accept my reasoning or you don’t. The End. I have no idea of what you believe. Those who believe in a non-interventionist god, or a god who can and does do evil, have no problems with any of this. But anyone believing in an all powerful deity who cares about us does have a problem, belief or no belief. I use tsunamis because I can see the free will argument, which is why I brought up something where human free will has no bearing. I am curious about how you deal with this problem. I’ve seen most of the standard ones, perhaps you have another. I can’t accept or reject your reasoning until I understand it. While I mourn for those killed in these disasters it does not affect my worldview because we live on a planet controlled by the laws of physics and geology, laws that mean the earth slips every so often and damages anything happening to be around. I live within walking distance of a major fault (which is overdue to slip) so I think about these things a bit. None of this has much to do with God’s existence. I certainly understand why believing makes many people feel better, but that is about them, not about the truth of what they believe in. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/305 "2012-09-20T20:45:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You don’t have to be a believer to discuss the attributes of gods in someone else’s scripture or religion. You can do pretty easily based on what people say and write and do regarding their gods. But it is mere conjecture on your part and clouded by your personal bias and interpretation. Just like I can try and discuss the attributes of life as a black man, but since I am not black or a man I will not ever really know what it is like. Unless you can be in my head and understand my religion the way I do, you cannot assume how I perceive God or his attributes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/306 "2012-09-20T20:47:01Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Is this really how an atheist thinks or views his beliefs in contrast with Christianity? It sounds so bleak. As opposed to standard Christianity, which amounts to “the world is a place of suffering, we are all sinners being punished. The universe is ruled by an invincible all-seeing supernatural being that demands obedience and worship and if you fail to give it to him he’ll torture you for eternity”? Yeah, that’s real cheerful. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/307 "2012-09-20T20:47:01Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > But it is mere conjecture on your part and clouded by your personal bias and interpretation. So is commentary about gods by religious people. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/308 "2012-09-20T20:55:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I have no idea of what you believe. Those who believe in a non-interventionist god, or a god who can and does do evil, have no problems with any of this. But anyone believing in an all powerful deity who cares about us does have a problem, belief or no belief. I use tsunamis because I can see the free will argument, which is why I brought up something where human free will has no bearing. > I am curious about how you deal with this problem. I’ve seen most of the standard ones, perhaps you have another. I can’t accept or reject your reasoning until I understand it. > While I mourn for those killed in these disasters it does not affect my worldview because we live on a planet controlled by the laws of physics and geology, laws that mean the earth slips every so often and damages anything happening to be around. I live within walking distance of a major fault (which is overdue to slip) so I think about these things a bit. > None of this has much to do with God’s existence. I certainly understand why believing makes many people feel better, but that is about them, not about the truth of what they believe in. I guess to sum it up, I am one of those rare Christians who believes that natural law such as earthquakes and tidal waves, etc. are manifestations of God’s law and that all we have learned in science is still part of God’s law. Since I believe he created the heavens and Earth it would stand to reason he also follows the natural laws of this world which He created. I only assume my line of thinking is rare because what society tells me is Christians are stereotyped as being narrow minded and science-phobic. But I hope that how I think is more common than the vocal religious right which looks like a bunch of wackos to me. I have no problem believing the Earth is about 5 billion years old or that dinosaurs existed way before man or even that man has evolved over time to the form we see today, or that evolution continues to happen. There is no reason that science and belief can coexist and be open to constant revaluation and self reflection. So keeping that in mind, would it still be your responsibility as an Atheist to “challenge” my belief? What would be the point and what would you as an Atheist get out of that? Probably just further frustration. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/309 "2012-09-20T20:58:05Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > So my answer to the original post is that there is no degree of responsibility for an Atheist to challenge belief. Just let it go. Don’t be a pushy asshole. I’m not, and I expect the same in return. Back up. I was discussing with **bob\_bolger** when the appropriate time to challenge beliefs would be. He said when a believer is unhappy. I responded with how an Atheist might make someone in a difficult spot see a brighter side. You responded that Atheism sounds bleak. I responded that any believer in a supreme being (of any specific shade) must contend with the conflicting problem of a worshiped being incapable or without the inclination to stop the suffering of the person he’s trying to soothe. And I’m a pushy asshole? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/310 "2012-09-20T20:59:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So is commentary about gods by religious people. Touche’ So what makes us so different? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/311 "2012-09-20T21:04:09Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > So what makes us so different? I’m not sure what you are asking. I was saying atheists can comment on religious beliefs just like believers can. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/312 "2012-09-20T21:10:24Z")
I see any public movement by atheists to be a reaction, not an action, and this reaction is usually miniscule compared to the original action. Any call for both sides to “knock it off” is disingenuous because it seems to happen only after someone dares to stand up. It is akin to saying “I don’t care _who_ started it-I want you both to knock it off!”. There is a definite problem…but you don’t want to hear about it. One side kicking the shit out of the other is fine and dandy, but ghod forbid the oppressed side try to raise a stink about it and disturb your beauty sleep. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/313 "2012-09-20T21:12:14Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Back up. I was discussing with **bob\_bolger** when the appropriate time to challenge beliefs would be. He said when a believer is unhappy. I responded with how an Atheist might make someone in a difficult spot see a brighter side. You responded that Atheism sounds bleak. I responded that any believer in a supreme being (of any specific shade) must contend with the conflicting problem of a worshiped being incapable or without the inclination to stop the suffering of the person he’s trying to soothe. > > And I’m a pushy asshole? Maybe not pushy, but a crafty one. You spot a weakness in someone’s beliefs and pounce when they are most vulnerable in order to get them to see things the way you do? Sounds like proselytizing to me. "any believer in a supreme being (of any specific shade) must contend with the conflicting problem of a worshiped being incapable or without the inclination to stop the suffering of the person he’s trying to soothe. " How is that a conflicting problem? Why does God have to stop suffering? He may be able and He is certainly inclined, He loves us after all, but he also has a more eternal perspective and knows that this life is hard and about gaining experience and there is so much more to eternity than this life. We would be like children who never know true happiness without true pain, or true success without failure, or know true compassion without having people to help. That is more comforting to me than saying, try as hard as you can in this life to reach some unattainable definition of happiness even though you know you are going to experience disappointment and suffering then you die and are nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/314 "2012-09-20T21:31:12Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Maybe not pushy, but a crafty one. You spot a weakness in someone’s beliefs and pounce when they are most vulnerable in order to get them to see things the way you do? Sounds like proselytizing to me. You give me too much credit, a child can see the only options for a supreme being are to allow suffering or being incapable of stopping it. > [@April\_R](#): > > "any believer in a supreme being (of any specific shade) must contend with the conflicting problem of a worshiped being incapable or without the inclination to stop the suffering of the person he’s trying to soothe. " > > How is that a conflicting problem? Why does God have to stop suffering? He may be able and He is certainly inclined, He loves us after all, but he also has a more eternal perspective and knows that this life is hard and about gaining experience and there is so much more to eternity than this life. We would be like children who never know true happiness without true pain, or true success without failure, or know true compassion without having people to help. Your god can stop our friends incredible pain but chooses not too in order to toughen him up for eternity. An eternity he needs this much toughening up for? And you think my perspective sounds bleak? > [@April\_R](#): > > That is more comforting to me than saying, try as hard as you can in this life to reach some unattainable definition of happiness even though you know you are going to experience disappointment and suffering then you die and are nothing. What unattainable definition of happiness are you referring too? Your belief is this world sucks bad but it’ll be better after you die. Again, you think my perspective sounds bleak? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/315 "2012-09-20T21:36:31Z")
I know it is a cliche but let’s just agree to disagree, and if you really want a more informed answer to your questions I can give you a contact. I am always learning and evolving in my beliefs and I don’t pretend to have all the answers. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/316 "2012-09-20T21:38:49Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Maybe not pushy, but a crafty one. You spot a weakness in someone’s beliefs and pounce when they are most vulnerable in order to get them to see things the way you do? Sounds like proselytizing to me. You appear to be making assumptions about his motives and behavior based on things he didn’t say. None of that is in the post you quoted. There’s nothing about pouncing and nothing about trying to convert anyone. > [@](#): > > How is that a conflicting problem? I agree there’s no conflict there . . . unless your view is that your particular god is kind or loves everybody. It’s entirely possible to believe in a god who doesn’t give a crap about people or enjoys seeing them suffer, and then you can simply say that god doesn’t care about suffering and I guess that’s too bad for everybody. But if you believe in a god who loves people and doesn’t want them to be miserable, you have to deal with the fact that a lot of miserable things happen to people and your god of choice either does not or cannot prevent them. You seem to be taking the first tack. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/317 "2012-09-20T21:41:00Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I know it is a cliche but let’s just agree to disagree, Agreed, I believe we’ve derailed this thread enough for one day. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/318 "2012-09-20T23:07:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You appear to be making assumptions about his motives and behavior based on things he didn’t say. None of that is in the post you quoted. There’s nothing about pouncing and nothing about trying to convert anyone. > > I agree there’s no conflict there . . . unless your view is that your particular god is kind or loves everybody. It’s entirely possible to believe in a god who doesn’t give a crap about people or enjoys seeing them suffer, and then you can simply say that god doesn’t care about suffering and I guess that’s too bad for everybody. But if you believe in a god who loves people and doesn’t want them to be miserable, you have to deal with the fact that a lot of miserable things happen to people and your god of choice either does not or cannot prevent them. You seem to be taking the first tack. How do you convert someone to atheism? Wouldn’t that technically be unconversion, or disconversion, or conversion reversal 😕 😃 You are either being obtuse or you are really that dense. I never said that, nor did I mean that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/319 "2012-09-20T23:26:24Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I guess to sum it up, I am one of those rare Christians who believes that natural law such as earthquakes and tidal waves, etc. are manifestations of God’s law and that all we have learned in science is still part of God’s law. Since I believe he created the heavens and Earth it would stand to reason he also follows the natural laws of this world which He created. I only assume my line of thinking is rare because what society tells me is Christians are stereotyped as being narrow minded and science-phobic. But I hope that how I think is more common than the vocal religious right which looks like a bunch of wackos to me. > > So keeping that in mind, would it still be your responsibility as an Atheist to “challenge” my belief? What would be the point and what would you as an Atheist get out of that? Probably just further frustration. I was responding to this originally: > [@](#): > > Why would I choose atheism if it can’t offer me a better choice than my religion? I never thought for a second you were a creationist. And my points have nothing to do with how the world got created - only with God’s goodness. Why challenge belief? As a researcher and reviewer and editor, I challenge other people’s beliefs all the time, and they challenge mine. And I try my best to challenge my own beliefs all the time also. That is why I’m here. I’ve been debating this subject on line for nearly 40 years. I understand those who believe in a non-interventionist god who created the universe, since they seem to get comfort from it not being so random. I do not understand anyone who believes in any of the western gods. I used to - but as soon as I got some information outside what my Hebrew School told me, and outside of what my parents chose to tell me, my belief totally fell away. Giving you a reason why atheism makes sense isn’t really challenging your beliefs. Or it shouldn’t be. Our beliefs would be very weak indeed if someone having reasons for different beliefs is threatening. Your god belief isn’t threatening to anyone, but if we’re not allowed to challenge it, we are also not allowed to challenge the god belief of the extremists who want to deny abortion rights to my daughters if they ever need them. May I challenge them and not you because their beliefs are harmful? But if their beliefs come from god, how can one say that they are really harmful? Much of the horrid stuff they believe in has actual Biblical roots. Sure there is contradictory material. Sometimes. But how can we tell that they are wrong and your Biblical view is right? The only way I see to proceed is to demolish their root justification, that is God, and then proceed by purely secular ethical arguments. Unfortunately your non-harmful God belief might become collateral damage. I hope that is on-topic enough for you. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/320 "2012-09-20T23:32:21Z")
That was an excellent point. I too think that those who fear being confronted with others beliefs because they think it will somehow weaken your own may suffer from a lack of faith or weakness of conviction. However, I caution you to attack extremists in any religion or cause because it seems to only make them more vicious or crazy, instead of making them think or self reflect They seem to revel in putting their fingers in their ears and going lalalalala at best, and cocking a gun from their underground bunker stockpile and taking a shot at worst. This isn’t saying you shouldn’t but that your tactics may need to be a bit more sophisticated than as some in this thread have proposed, simply saying their god is silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=17)