# What is the degree of Atheist responsibility to challenge belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707 "2012-09-14T17:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/21 "2012-09-14T17:51:42Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Are you tied up and forced to listen to them? > > If it’s your grandma, that’s one thing. You have to do alot of things you don’t like to get along with family. > > Otherwise, just tell them to fuck off. And what if your boss is forcing everyone to go to prayer meetings, and anyone who _doesn’t_ go gets fired for some officially unrelated reason? What if the believers are pushing creationism in school or school prayer on your children? What if they are writing their religious beliefs into the law? ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/22 "2012-09-14T17:51:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think that’s mostly the right idea, but it’s not sufficient when other people are aggressively spreading their own beliefs, instituting social policies and strictures based on them, and lying about you. OK. “I didn’t become a Christian until many years later, when I moved to the South Side of Chicago after college. It happened not because of indoctrination or a sudden revelation, but because I spent month after month working with church folks who simply wanted to help neighbors who were down on their luck no matter what they looked like, or where they came from, or who they prayed to. It was on those streets, in those neighborhoods, that I first heard God’s spirit beckon me. It was there that I felt called to a higher purpose – His purpose.” Maybe this quote of POTUS says it better than I. Live your life in ways that are admirable and your influence on others is more likely to serve the greater good. Spending energy trying to argue faith out of your own mother seems more like an arrogant, disrespectful, and intolerant venture. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/23 "2012-09-14T17:53:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Self defense, From what? > [@](#): > > concern for the welfare of society. If you’re fighting against a theocracy or whatever, sure. But the answer to that is secular government - not a society where religion is illegal. And they’d be wrong. [/QUOTE] You’re being just as arrogant as they are. > [@](#): > > Nonsense. My disbelief in gods is logically consistent and conforms to everything we know about the world; that’s the opposite of the believers. you are pretending to a false intellectual equivalency between atheism and theism. No, I’m pointing out that they are just as convinced as you are that they are right. Their belief system is part of HOW THEY THINK, not just what they think. So there’s no point. > [@](#): > > In other words atheists should just sit quietly in a corner while the believers write their fantasies into the law and push them wherever they can. NO! They should demand that believers not write anything into law. That doesn’t require you to demand that YOUR beliefs be written into law though. Just the opposite. > [@](#): > > And they should stay quiet while the believers either deny that atheists even exist or talk about how they are all Satanic monsters. I didn’t say you can’t defend yourself from attacks. That’s different from deliberately challenging those who haven’t challenged you. And defending yourself can simply consist of saying you exist, not trying to get them to convert to atheism. You don’t see the obvious problem with answering religious evangelism with atheist evangelism? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/24 "2012-09-14T17:54:49Z")
Atheists have zero responsibility to challenge the beliefs of others. In most cases, doing so is a pure asshole move. Live and let live. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/25 "2012-09-14T17:56:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And what if your boss is forcing everyone to go to prayer meetings, and anyone who _doesn’t_ go gets fired for some officially unrelated reason? What if the believers are pushing creationism in school or school prayer on your children? What if they are writing their religious beliefs into the law? You have two choice: 1. Tell your boss to stop (and sue his ass). Fight those school policies and laws. 2. Start requiring your employees to pledge that they don’t believe in God and will be fired if they don’t. Force children in school to do the same. Outlaw all religion. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/26 "2012-09-14T17:57:16Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Then why bother? He wants a shouting match? Beats me. > [@](#): > > Are you tied up and forced to listen to them? You seem to be agreeing with **Der Trihs** ’s “In other words atheists should just sit quietly in a corner” comment here. > [@](#): > > Otherwise, just tell them to fuck off. That’s fine when dealing with individuals. When dealing with organized groups who are pushing for religiously-based or otherwise intolerable laws and social policies, just telling them to fuck off and ignoring them doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/27 "2012-09-14T17:57:21Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > Spending energy trying to argue faith out of your own mother seems more like an arrogant, disrespectful, and intolerant venture. That isn’t the point. As I mentioned up thread, I only respond when questioned, I’m not walking about starting the conversations. As for arrogant, Intolerant, and disrespectful, I don’t see any reason to be more accepting on one type of nonsense than another. Particularly when that nonsense is harmful to society in general and opens my loved ones up to predation by hucksters. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/28 "2012-09-14T17:57:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they are targets of that religious activism. Atheists are hated, loathed and feared by the believers; constantly demonized. It’s collective self defense. The problem, then is the loathing and demonizing, not the believing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/29 "2012-09-14T18:00:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > From what? Believers. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If you’re fighting against a theocracy or whatever, sure. But the answer to that is secular government - not a society where religion is illegal. [Religion is destructive to society](http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/religious-belief-and-societal-health/), even in non-theocracies. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And they’d be wrong. > > You’re being just as arrogant as they are. That’s just silly. My denial of their completely implausible, illogical fantasies is not _remotely_ as arrogant as their denial of reality in order to believe those fantasies; much less their constant attempts to force those fantasies on everyone else. You are, again, pretending to an equivalence that does not exist. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You don’t see the obvious problem with answering religious evangelism with atheist evangelism? There is no problem. Believers insist it’s wrong because that conveniently turns atheists into silent victims. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/30 "2012-09-14T18:00:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Beats me. > > You seem to be agreeing with **Der Trihs** ’s “In other words atheists should just sit quietly in a corner” comment here. So when someone comes to your door with a brochure about whatever religion, are your only choices to go quietly sit in a corner or start a screaming match? No, you simply say “no thanks.” > [@](#): > > That’s fine when dealing with individuals. When dealing with organized groups who are pushing for religiously-based or otherwise intolerable laws and social policies, just telling them to fuck off and ignoring them doesn’t work. Okay, we’re have a serious confusion problem here. People talking about their religion to you and people trying to force it on you through law are two very different things. The former was the subject of the OP, not the latter. The answer to people trying to force their religion on you through law is to resist that. It’s NOT to force your beliefs on them. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/31 "2012-09-14T18:00:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The problem, then is the loathing and demonizing, not the believing. The former is the direct result of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/32 "2012-09-14T18:01:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The problem, then is the loathing and demonizing, not the believing. The two go hand in hand. The mere existence of atheism is a threat to religion. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/33 "2012-09-14T18:02:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s just silly. My denial of their completely implausible, illogical fantasies is not _remotely_ as arrogant as their denial of reality in order to believe those fantasies; LOL. Nice. You think and talk exactly like a religious person. The only thing missing is religion. Why would anyone be willing to talk to you when you are so completely convinced that you are right? Why bother? They won’t change their minds. You certainly won’t. You know this. So why bother? ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/34 "2012-09-14T18:04:02Z")
No degree of responsibility. Maybe it’s only here that I’m in the minority, but as a lifelong atheist (at least as far back as I can remember thinking about such things), I actually kind of like people with their beliefs, and am constantly trying to improve my ability to read the scholastic philosophers It’s fun. Religion isn’t bad – it’s just the nutty social views of dicks who happen to be religious that are offensive. I’d say, argue that surface stuff when possible (heh, probably not possible), but who gives a shit if someone is a die-hard zealot like Thomas More or Erasmus, as concerns their beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/35 "2012-09-14T18:04:08Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > The former is the direct result of the latter. So? Does this mean we can’t co-exist? We must resume the religious wars until atheism triumphs and religion is stamped out forever? ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/36 "2012-09-14T18:05:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What makes you think she isn’t, or won’t? Or that someone won’t be able to do unethical things to _her_ because of her false beliefs? Holding irrational beliefs and indulging in bad judgement to protect those beliefs results in bad decision making, both of the moral and practical variety. Intolerance of his mother’s long held personal beliefs and traditions is ugly behavior. Behaving in unloving and ugly ways towards his mother is not a stellar argument for this poster’s atheist beliefs. If/when his mother’s faith no longer serves her needs, her beliefs will change organically. The OP made no reference to any moral mis-steps his mother has made because of her beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/37 "2012-09-14T18:06:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The two go hand in hand. The mere existence of atheism is a threat to religion. The issue is how you respond. People can believe what they want. They can not like you, for unfair reasons. That’s life. All you can demand is that they leave you alone and don’t impose their beliefs on you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/38 "2012-09-14T18:08:23Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > People talking about their religion to you and people trying to force it on you through law are two very different things. The former was the subject of the OP, not the latter. They are related concepts and the OP didn’t specify that he was talking about only one or the other, which is why we’re talking about both. I agree there is no need to pick fights with Jehovah’s Witnesses (nevermind your family). The point here is that there is a continuum because people act on their beliefs in a wide variety of ways, and many people do believe that it’s their responsibility to shape society in accordance with their own religious views. That does not only happen through law, by the way. Social pressure can also do the trick. I agree the default assumption should be live and let live and leave people to believe what they want. But it needs to be recognized that for some people, “believe what you want” includes changing society so everyone has to abide by the principles of their religion. In those cases, “live and let live” means some people are active and some people are passive, and the people with the active views are going to win out. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/39 "2012-09-14T18:09:45Z")
Non-believers do not have a responsibility to accept other’s religious beliefs as any more than the fantasies they are, but that doesn’t translate into a responsibility to seek out and destroy religious belief. Correcting someone who’s beliefs are detrimental to them is everyone responsibility. There are plenty of detrimental beliefs and misunderstandings we all have that should be corrected before we start worrying mom over whether going to church and praying is useful. IMO, us non-believers should be happy if we can just get the believers to shut the heck up. We should not care, and I don’t care, if they come over to our beliefs. That drive to force others to espouse the same beliefs as them is the thing I hate most about the religious. So the degree of responsibility to tell others about your beliefs is zero for everyone. If you can convince the religious of this, I will thank you. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/40 "2012-09-14T18:10:58Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > Intolerance of his mother’s long held personal beliefs and traditions is ugly behavior. He is arguing that it is justified by her ugly intolerance of his beliefs–if that’'s what he thinks of her behavior. I don’t see her behavior as ugly or intolerant of him. From the OP: > [@](#): > > She is unwilling or unable to deal with the losses in life and her own mortality without the pleasant fiction of religion; and she isn’t alone. Many people I meet and talk to about this topic end up in the same boat. They can’t escape the simple logic; and may possess doubts, but cannot allow themselves to take the further step for fear of the unknown. While this self imposed insulation may seem harmless, Your poor mother is having trouble dealing with life. The response is not to attack her beliefs in a war on religion. Won’t help you, won’t help her. Your frustration doesn’t justify that. It’s her life, and she can believe what she wants and live how she wants, and all you can do is ask for the same respect from others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=3)