# What is the degree of Atheist responsibility to challenge belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707 "2012-09-14T17:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/41 "2012-09-14T18:14:27Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > Intolerance of his mother’s long held personal beliefs and traditions is ugly behavior. Behaving in unloving and ugly ways towards his mother is not a stellar argument for this poster’s atheist beliefs. If/when his mother’s faith no longer serves her needs, her beliefs will change organically. The OP made no reference to any moral mis-steps his mother has made because of her beliefs. Get off your high horse. The origin of our discussions isn’t relevant nor is my mother’s moral character. FTR she pinned me into a corner with the god talk and asked to hear what I had to say on it. As for respect, again, one type of nonsense is as worthy of scorn and debunking as another. If Mum was ill and believed in homeopathy, you could be damn sure I’d be fighting to take her to a hospital to receive real care; that hardly makes me ugly. It makes me a responsible human helping another. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/42 "2012-09-14T18:14:53Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > LOL. Nice. > > You think and talk exactly like a religious person. The only thing missing is religion. Nonsense. again. My denial of religion fits the facts and is logically consistent. That is not true of the believer’s fantasies; something even they effectively acknowledge with their emphasis on faith. Insisting over and over again that atheism and theism are intellectual equals doesn’t make it true. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > People can believe what they want. They can not like you, for unfair reasons. That’s life. All you can demand is that they leave you alone and don’t impose their beliefs on you. No, I can point out that their beliefs are baseless and foolish. They are not going to leave me alone; they are not going to stop trying to force their beliefs on me and everyone else. They are my enemies; they hate me (along with every other unbeliever), and many I’m sure would assault or kill me if they thought they could do so without punishment from the government. I owe them neither respect nor politeness. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/43 "2012-09-14T18:22:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They are related concepts and the OP didn’t specify that he was talking about only one or the other, which is why we’re talking about both. Just don’t confuse the two, that’s all. > [@](#): > > I agree there is no need to pick fights with Jehovah’s Witnesses (nevermind your family). The point here is that there is a continuum because people act on their beliefs in a wide variety of ways, and many people do believe that it’s their responsibility to shape society in accordance with their own religious views. That does not only happen through law, by the way. Social pressure can also do the trick. I agree the default assumption should be live and let live and leave people to believe what they want. Okay. > [@](#): > > But it needs to be recognized that for some people, “believe what you want” includes changing society so everyone has to abide by the principles of their religion. And that’s obviously stupid. So you simply say “that’s stupid - that’s not believing what I want.” > [@](#): > > In those cases, “live and let live” means some people are active and some people are passive, and the people with the active views are going to win out. Win out? Win what? If you’re standing for the principle of live and let live, you don’t lose. If you are pushing back with your own beliefs, you’re not longer standing for that principle. You’re BUYING INTO the idea that people can push their beliefs on others, and helping set that precedent. You’re abandoned neutrality. And you might end up on the losing side of that in the long run. So, again, don’t confuse the two. If you demand that others respect your right to believe, you have to respect theirs. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/44 "2012-09-14T18:24:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. again. My denial of religion fits the facts and is logically consistent. That is not true of the believer’s fantasies; something even they effectively acknowledge with their emphasis on faith. You’re right and they are wrong. You said that already. So did they. > [@](#): > > Insisting over and over again that atheism and theism are intellectual equals doesn’t make it true. I said nothing of the sort. You’re using the same kind of arguments, that’s all. You’re not going to get anywhere. Why try? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/45 "2012-09-14T18:25:48Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Get off your high horse. > > The origin of our discussions isn’t relevant nor is my mother’s moral character. FTR she pinned me into a corner with the god talk and asked to hear what I had to say on it. As for respect, again, one type of nonsense is as worthy of scorn and debunking as another. If Mum was ill and believed in homeopathy, you could be damn sure I’d be fighting to take her to a hospital to receive real care; that hardly makes me ugly. It makes me a responsible human helping another. Did it occur to you that a religious person would say the exact same thing about you? That they are trying to help you by saving your soul or whatnot? ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/46 "2012-09-14T18:25:54Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Do atheists have a _responsibility_ to challenge belief and superstition or should each person be left to their own revelations? > > \ > > So do we have an obligation to challenge belief at every opportunity? If we pick and choose in effort to spare the feelings of those we love, do we do them a disservice? So what you are really talking about seems to be an Evangelical Atheism, asking if there is a fundamental, moral, need to spread the Word of your belief system. In this case atheism. How is this any different from the moral obligation that some religious people feel about the need to spread their own Word? Aren’t you then becoming a caricature of what you seek to disprove? Aren’t you then a preacher of atheism seeking to convert the ignorant masses? I don’t see the difference really. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/47 "2012-09-14T18:26:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think that’s mostly the right idea, but it’s not sufficient when other people are aggressively spreading their own beliefs, instituting social policies and strictures based on them, and lying about you. And this is equally one of those ideas that many religious people and, as even hinted at by the OP of this thread, many non-religious people seem to follow that is socially destructive. And it’s not limited to religion either, it’s a something I see all over the place including completely non-religious philosophies, poltics… hell, as I’m sure most of you have as well, I’ve had people come up to me and lecture me about how awesome some band is and why I’m a complete moron for not loving them too. The answer here isn’t to reciprocate because it only causes people to dig in their heels further. In my view, aggressive evangelism of any belief will tend to have a more negative effect because it creates that resistance and sometimes aggressive return likewise. If you think it’s one of the things that many religious people do wrong, why would you want to copy the behavior? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/48 "2012-09-14T18:27:46Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Did it occur to you that a religious person would say the exact same thing about you? That they are trying to help you by saving your soul or whatnot? You really like that false equivalence argument don’t you? [HERE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/49 "2012-09-14T18:27:55Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Just don’t confuse the two, that’s all. I’m not. > [@](#): > > And that’s obviously stupid. I agree that it’s stupid, but it’s deliberate. > [@](#): > > Win out? Win what? Society will be shaped according to their views. > [@](#): > > If you’re standing for the principle of live and let live, you don’t lose. If you’re standing up for the principle and making sure that principle is defended, that’s correct. If you’re only practicing it on your own, then yes, you may run into a problem when you deal with someone else who doesn’t believe in that princple. > [@](#): > > If you demand that others respect your right to believe, you have to respect theirs. I understand that and I have said so. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/50 "2012-09-14T18:30:47Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > So what you are really talking about seems to be an Evangelical Atheism, asking if there is a fundamental, moral, need to spread the Word of your belief system. In this case atheism. > > How is this any different from the moral obligation that some religious people feel about the need to spread their own Word? > > Aren’t you then becoming a caricature of what you seek to disprove? Aren’t you then a preacher of atheism seeking to convert the ignorant masses? > > I don’t see the difference really. As **DerTrihs** mentioned, the difference is primarily in that one sided has demonstrable, repeatable, physical evidence for their logical position that is always open to revision, whereas the other has a bunch of woo, pseudo-science, and ever tortured illogic. For the thread in general, I’m off to work (night shift) so I’ll check in tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/51 "2012-09-14T18:35:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I owe them neither respect nor politeness. Yet if you tried it, you’d probably catch a lot less hate and fewer beatings. You are not the Enlightened One charged with saving the masses from themselves. The respect and politeness you disdain is part of the social contract. Give it to get it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/52 "2012-09-14T18:38:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You’re right and they are wrong. You said that already. > So did they. So. What. You keep repeating that as if it mattered. Racists, Nazis and the inmates of lunatic asylums also believe they are right; belief is not some automatic conferrer of plausibility. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I said nothing of the sort. > > You’re using the same kind of arguments, that’s all. Nonsense. I’m using the exact opposite arguments; my disbelief in gods is based on the facts and on logic; not on denial of them. You are just doing the standard routine of loudly insisting that both sides in an argument are the same, rather than trying to defend an indefensible belief. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You’re not going to get anywhere. Why try? Garbage. A few decades of open, aggressive atheism has done more to convince people than millennia of being what you call “polite”. That’s _why_ so many defenders of religion want atheists to shut up like the “good old days”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/53 "2012-09-14T18:43:16Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The respect and politeness you disdain is part of the social contract. Give it to get it. Nonsense. Believers hated atheists at least as much when they were so silent as to be effectively mythical. They don’t hate me because of anything I say or do; most don’t even know I exist. They hate me because I’m an atheist, period. My existence is an affront to them. They don’t even really hate the _actual_ me; they hate a demonic figure that is their image of what atheists are like. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/54 "2012-09-14T18:43:17Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > As **DerTrihs** mentioned, the difference is primarily in that one sided has demonstrable, repeatable, physical evidence for their logical position that is always open to revision, whereas the other has a bunch of woo, pseudo-science, and ever tortured illogic. > For the thread in general, I’m off to work (night shift) so I’ll check in tomorrow. Right… Nice hand wave… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/55 "2012-09-14T18:45:30Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Right… > > Nice hand wave… It isn’t a hand wave. The laws of physics work; prayer and other religious nonsense doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/56 "2012-09-14T18:52:43Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > As **DerTrihs** mentioned, the difference is primarily in that one sided has demonstrable, repeatable, physical evidence for their logical position that is always open to revision, whereas the other has a bunch of woo, pseudo-science, and ever tortured illogic. This is a fair position for theists who make scientific arguments with religious reasoning, like Young-Earth Creationism. It is not a fair argument for what I think is the point here, God’s existence, as it is a non-scientific claim. And even if people believe tortured illogical pseudoscience, why is that another person’s responsibility to fix? Fighting ignorance is only effective if those who are ignorant are open to new ideas; you will very rarely be able to browbeat someone into it. The only time I see that as at all reasonable is if said person is trying to make, say YEC, a subject taught in school. But even then, the goal shouldn’t be to necessarily convince that individual but simply to defeat the socially destructive idea, which would be that it should be taught in school. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/57 "2012-09-14T18:54:40Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > And even if people believe tortured illogical pseudoscience, why is that another person’s responsibility to fix? Because it hurts both themselves and others. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/58 "2012-09-14T18:58:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It isn’t a hand wave. The laws of physics work; prayer and other religious nonsense doesn’t. I wasn’t taking a pro-religion stand. I was asking how preaching atheism to convert people to that point of view is different from what the fundementalist religious people do. Feeling a moral responsibility, a need, to convert people either toward your belief or away from theirs, is very much the same thing. It’s preaching. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/59 "2012-09-14T19:05:59Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > I was asking how preaching atheism to convert people to that point of view is different from what the fundementalist religious people do. The former is true, the latter is false. Also, the latter is a belief system, while the former is just pointing out that it’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/60 "2012-09-14T19:10:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The former is true, the latter is false. How very didactic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=4)