# What is the degree of Atheist responsibility to challenge belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707 "2012-09-14T17:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/121 "2012-09-17T16:00:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Exactly. It’s a circular argument, because “whether religion is stupid” IS what the debate is about. No it isn’t, and the OP is my cite. It may be what _you_ want to turn it into, but tough. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/122 "2012-09-17T16:05:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m well aware of that and never said otherwise. We’re discussing the ones that don’t. Then you can’t say that any given religious person is going to automatically disagree with you. > [@](#): > > I’m aware of what rights people have. I think you’re falling back on this position to avoid a more complicated question: what if people are doing something legal but awful based on religion. I disagree that that’s none of my business, and I think a lot of women and gays and African-Americans would agree- because over the decades they’ve seen both an acknowledgement of their legal rights and better treatment overall from society. If something should be illegal that is caused by religion, it should be illegal when not caused by religion. On the other hand, if something is awful but legal, you have every right to speak out against it, or even against the religion that causes it. Just don’t expect them to care, that’s all. They are the ones who might say “it’s none of your business.” At that point, to make them listen, you might want to stop attacking their religious beliefs and try to find more common ground. > [@](#): > > Me: “This is wrong.” > Them: “God says it’s right.” > > Now what? “This isn’t about God.” Do you really think “no, He doesn’t” or “there is no God” is going to work better on people like that? > [@](#): > > Everybody understands that. The issue is that people’s beliefs influence their actions. Yes, including yours. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/123 "2012-09-17T16:05:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Atheism doesn’t lead to anything. It’s an absence. I think this must also answer the titular question of the thread. Atheism cannot impart responsibility, if it’s just an absence. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/124 "2012-09-17T16:06:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No it isn’t, and the OP is my cite. It may be what _you_ want to turn it into, but tough. I think I characterized the OP quite well. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/125 "2012-09-17T16:07:54Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I think this mist also answer the titular question of the thread. Atheism cannot impart responsibility, if it’s just an absence. Great point. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/126 "2012-09-17T16:09:52Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Then you can’t say that any given religious person is going to automatically disagree with you. I didn’t. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if something is awful but legal, you have every right to speak out against it, or even against the religion that causes it. Just don’t expect them to care, that’s all. And yet there has been a lot of social progress on these issues over the years. So I think some people actually do care. > [@](#): > > “This isn’t about God.” There are some devout religious people who reject this entire concept, believing that anything that isn’t about God is sinful. > [@](#): > > Yes, including yours. I don’t recall saying otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/127 "2012-09-17T16:12:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t. “Which of course they won’t agree with because they believe the law needs to reflect their morality,” To me that implies that few religious people would simply say “you have your beliefs and I have mine, and religious freedom compels me to leave you to yours.” > [@](#): > > And yet there has been a lot of social progress on these issues over the years. So I think some people actually do care. But you just said: “Which of course they won’t agree with because they believe the law needs to reflect their morality…” So are you changing their minds about their own religion’s beliefs, or what? > [@](#): > > There are some devout religious people who reject this entire concept, believing that anything that isn’t about God is sinful. Yes, some. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall saying otherwise. Just pointing out that when you challenge the beliefs of others, you open yourself up to challenge. And I see a stalemate coming. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/128 "2012-09-17T16:17:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > “Which of course they won’t agree with because they believe the law needs to reflect their morality,” > > To me that implies that few religious people would simply say “you have your beliefs and I have mine, and religious freedom compels me to leave you to yours.” We were discussing a particular group of religious people, and I think you are in the habit of ascribing intents to posters that are not actually reflected in this posts. > [@](#): > > So are you changing their minds about their own religion’s beliefs, or what? I think over time people’s interpretation of religious doctrine evolves, yes. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Just pointing out that when you challenge the beliefs of others, you open yourself up to challenge. Obviously. I think you’re making the assumption that arguments from conviction never change anything, and there’s a lot of evidence that says that is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/129 "2012-09-17T16:20:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We were discussing a particular group of religious people, We were? So there’s a group of religious people that atheists have no beef with. Okay. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/130 "2012-09-17T16:28:42Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > We were? > > So there’s a group of religious people that atheists have no beef with. Okay. Sure, I don’t think I have immediate problems with a lot of Asian religions. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/131 "2012-09-17T16:31:22Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Sure, I don’t think I have immediate problems with a lot of Asian religions. There are millions of CHRISTIANS, in the U.S. and elsewhere, who believe in religious freedom and tolerance and all that stuff, and the ability to disagree with others about many moral issues without conflict. The U.S. invented religious freedom, remember? And probably nobody who voted for it was an atheist at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/132 "2012-09-17T16:33:33Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > We were? Uh, yes: > [@Marley23](#): > > I think that’s mostly the right idea, but it’s not sufficient when other people are aggressively spreading their own beliefs, instituting social policies and strictures based on them, and lying about you. > [@Marley23](#): > > That, I have to admit, does not really work. Particularly not with people who think they are required to spread their beliefs for the good of everybody (which brings us back to the OP, who’s unfortunately proposing something similar). I’m sure I could keep quoting my own posts and find other examples. Please read more closely. I realize **Der Trihs** mostly deals in huge generalizations and absolutes regarding religious people, but most of the other atheist posters here do not. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So there’s a group of religious people that atheists have no beef with. Okay. I have no beef with most religious people and I’m not the spokesman for atheism. Can we get back on topic now? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/133 "2012-09-17T16:35:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > There are millions of CHRISTIANS, in the U.S. and elsewhere, who believe in religious freedom and tolerance and all that stuff, and the ability to disagree with others about many moral issues without conflict. Oh, you were only talking about a particular group of religious. OK. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/134 "2012-09-17T16:37:48Z")
Ignoring the attempted hijack, I think an atheist has the same ethical obligation to correct belief that she/he feels is harmful to society at large as anyone else. It isn’t the atheism that should be the driving force, though-it should be the general understanding that enforced and/or deliberate ignorance is a desease that cripples society and progress. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/135 "2012-09-17T17:02:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > There are millions of CHRISTIANS, in the U.S. and elsewhere, who believe in religious freedom and tolerance and all that stuff, and the ability to disagree with others about many moral issues without conflict. > > The U.S. invented religious freedom, remember? And probably nobody who voted for it was an atheist at the time. At that time, no. Not even Paine was an atheist. But given the reasons he gave for his deism in **The Age of Reason** , I suspect he would be one today. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/136 "2012-09-17T17:05:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sure I could keep quoting my own posts and find other examples. Please read more closely. I realize **Der Trihs** mostly deals in huge generalizations and absolutes regarding religious people, but most of the other atheist posters here do not. To be fair to me, yours weren’t specific when in the context of the thread. When you say “particularly when you’re talking about people…” you could still be referring to ALL people within a group, and simply characterizing them. But now I understand you, so no matter. > [@](#): > > I have no beef with most religious people and I’m not the spokesman for atheism. Can we get back on topic now? That was the topic in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/137 "2012-09-17T17:06:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > At that time, no. Not even Paine was an atheist. But given the reasons he gave for his deism in **The Age of Reason** , I suspect he would be one today. Paine was certainly rejected by most of religious America after the revolution. Still, the fact remains that he and most American leaders and common folk embraced religious freedom, to a point. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/138 "2012-09-17T17:08:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think an atheist has the same ethical obligation to correct belief that she/he feels is harmful to society at large as anyone else. You mean as religious people? So you think religious people have a duty to go fix society, and atheists have a duty to fight them? > [@](#): > > It isn’t the atheism that should be the driving force, though-it should be the general understanding that enforced and/or deliberate ignorance is a desease that cripples society and progress. What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/139 "2012-09-17T17:09:07Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Oh, you were only talking about a particular group of religious. > OK. Yes, I made that clear from the start. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/140 "2012-09-17T17:13:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > To be fair to me, yours weren’t specific when in the context of the thread. I was specific, and you also didn’t ask before making an assumption about what I meant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=8)