# What is the degree of Atheist responsibility to challenge belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707 "2012-09-14T17:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/141 "2012-09-17T17:19:18Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes, I made that clear from the start. Are you here to speak on behalf of religious people? I ask this because you keep bringing up what religious people would or do supposedly say, and no amount of hiding behind “Well, _they’re_ saying it, not me necessarily” can cover it up. What’s wrong with stating your own opinions, and letting any religionists state theirs? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/142 "2012-09-17T17:22:06Z")
I agree with Lance. When challenged, stand your ground. When people argue for bad public policy (regardless of their motives), argue against it. But there’s little point trying to convince someone who isn’t interested in learning. For anyone interested in engaging in a reasonable conversation, either to learn about the views of the other side, or perhaps (but rarely) open minded enough to actually consider changing their minds, then the conversation is worthwhile. Otherwise it’s just hot air. People have to live in accordance to their deep-seated convictions. Challenging those is rarely fruitful. I have a hard time respecting anyone who’d worship – not just fear, but _worship_ – any god that would condemn anyone to eternal suffering. I mean … do the math! But I remind myself that they’re not doing the math, and might be worthy of respect for lots of other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/143 "2012-09-17T17:23:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The U.S. invented religious freedom, remember? And probably nobody who voted for it was an atheist at the time. Actually, the majority of the writers of the constitution and early congress were at _best_ Deists, and the majority were likely closet atheists as their writing and correspondence suggests. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/144 "2012-09-17T17:27:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you here to speak on behalf of religious people? I ask this because you keep bringing up what religious people would or do supposedly say, and no amount of hiding behind “Well, _they’re_ saying it, not me necessarily” can cover it up. What’s wrong with stating your own opinions, and letting any religionists state theirs? I don’t think there are any religionists here to state it. If you want to just have a discussion where you all tell each other how right you are, fine, but that’s boring and unproductive, and likely to produce blatant falsehoods, as already seen here. In any event, if you want to know what religious people think and don’t want to hear it from me, here’s a good start: > **[1. Polls and votes: The 2014 elections by the numbers](https://www.pewresearch.org/methods/2016/01/07/polls-and-votes-the-2014-elections-by-the-numbers/)** > > Our equivalent of a crystal ball – the voter file, combined with a post-election survey interview – provides us with a validated record of turnout for our Here’s a story summing up one of their fairly recent polls on religious beliefs in general: [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/world/americas/24iht-religion.1.13946559.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/world/americas/24iht-religion.1.13946559.html) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/145 "2012-09-17T17:28:49Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I agree with Lance. > > When challenged, stand your ground. When people argue for bad public policy (regardless of their motives), argue against it. > > But there’s little point trying to convince someone who isn’t interested in learning. For anyone interested in engaging in a reasonable conversation, either to learn about the views of the other side, or perhaps (but rarely) open minded enough to actually consider changing their minds, then the conversation is worthwhile. Otherwise it’s just hot air. > > People have to live in accordance to their deep-seated convictions. Challenging those is rarely fruitful. > > I have a hard time respecting anyone who’d worship – not just fear, but _worship_ – any god that would condemn anyone to eternal suffering. I mean … do the math! But I remind myself that they’re not doing the math, and might be worthy of respect for lots of other reasons. PRopoganda _works_. What percentage of Christians are taught to “spread The Word”? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/146 "2012-09-17T17:30:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I was specific I explained how my interpretation happened. I think it was perfectly reasonable. > [@](#): > > and you also didn’t ask before making an assumption about what I meant. I didn’t know I was making a false assumption, so how would I know to ask? Misunderstandings happen, and they aren’t anybody’s fault, and then you clear them up. So now we’re clear. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/147 "2012-09-17T17:31:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I don’t think there are any religionists here to state it.] We have plenty, so their is no real need for you to champion their cause…unless it is actually your cause too, of course. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/148 "2012-09-17T17:31:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > PRopoganda _works_. So whatever they say is “propoganda” and whatever you say is truth. And somewhere, a religious person is saying exactly the same thing about atheists. > [@](#): > > What percentage of Christians are taught to “spread The Word”? Isn’t the topic of the OP whether atheists should spread the word? Just a different one. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/149 "2012-09-17T17:33:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > We have plenty, so their is no real need for you to champion their cause…unless it is actually your cause too, of course. Where? What religious people have posted on this thread? I don’t think I’ve seen one at all, but maybe I missed it. In any event, I can post whatever I want. I haven’t even said whether I believe in God or not. As I already explained, I’m playing (ironically) Devil’s Advocate - and that’s a useful thing. If you don’t want your beliefs challenged, don’t post them here. (Yet another example of non-religious people acting exactly like the religious people they complain about). ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/150 "2012-09-17T17:35:46Z")
> [@](#): > > “What does atheist mean? It may mean they don’t believe in God, or it could be that they are hostile to organized religion,” Green said. Actually that just demonstrated what we’ve known for a while; that quite a lot of people are idiots. The only requirement to being an _atheist_ is simply not believing in god(s). It has little to nothing to do with affiliation or position re: religion. You can be an atheist and go to church every Sunday, and you can can be an atheist who thinks the whole exercise is idiotic. Granted, the realization that there is no god usually leads to ceasing religious observations, but it is by no means a necessity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/151 "2012-09-17T17:35:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So whatever they say is “propoganda” and whatever you say is truth. > > And somewhere, a religious person is saying exactly the same thing about atheists. Either quote her or him, or(better yet) have her or him respond personally to this thread. Who the hell appointed you as religion’s proxy? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/152 "2012-09-17T17:39:12Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Where? > > What religious people have posted on this thread? I don’t think I’ve seen one at all, but maybe I missed it. > > In any event, I can post whatever I want. I haven’t even said whether I believe in God or not. As I already explained, I’m playing (ironically) Devil’s Advocate - and that’s a useful thing. If you don’t want your beliefs challenged, don’t post them here. (Yet another example of non-religious people acting exactly like the religious people they complain about). Actually I’m happy to have a debate about religious convictions. The problem is that you aren’t even remotely interested in debating honestly **Lance**. You’ve dragged out every tired old bit of faulty debating from the basement and given it a good and thorough airing. It still stinks. False equivalency, My post is my cite, Circular logic, rules lawyering, and even good old fashioned playground level nuh-uh! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/153 "2012-09-17T17:43:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Either quote her or him, or(better yet) have her or him respond personally to this thread. Who the hell appointed you as religion’s proxy? Who the hell appointed you as the person who gets to tell people what they can post about or why? And who said I wasn’t religious anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/154 "2012-09-17T17:43:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I explained how my interpretation happened. I think it was perfectly reasonable. As the person whose views were being mischaracterized, I didn’t think it was reasonable: you made assumptions about what I meant that ran counter to what I actually wrote. In the meantime, has this changed your position at all? It seems to me that I’ve at least illustrated that these issues can be more complicated than you were asserting. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/155 "2012-09-17T17:43:47Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I think this must also answer the titular question of the thread. Atheism cannot impart responsibility, if it’s just an absence. I’m not buying this argument. People could have the fictitious belief that it’s good to do things that cause significant public harm, irrespective of religion. It would be a reasonable public service campaign to disabuse them of their beliefs. For example, in South Africa, many believe that having sex with a virgin cures AIDs, and that AIDs isn’t caused by unprotected sex, etc. Theoretically, folks who are arguing against Lance have a point, that the educated have a responsibility to educate the ignorant. Practically speaking, though, attempts to do this have the opposite of the intended effect. I often wish Dawkins would simply stick to evolution and not talk about religion, because he ends up riling up more resistance to evolution than if he kept his trap shut sometimes. Of course, I defend his right to speak his mind. If you’re moved to start a public education campaign against the foolishness of relition, well … good luck. I hope you’re effective, but I’m deeply skeptical and strongly suspect you’ll do more harm than good to your cause. Equally importantly, we have to show mutual respect, in order to have a civil society. Sure, there’s a line across which we don’t allow anyone to cross: but that line is set by general public agreement, and that line moves over time. I also often remind myself that I’ve been dead wrong about far simpler questions. If I’m wrong in my lack of belief in the supernatural, well, I’ll be very surprised, but it won’t be the first time I have a big “doh!” moment. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/156 "2012-09-17T17:44:22Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Actually I’m happy to have a debate about religious convictions. The problem is that you aren’t even remotely interested in debating honestly **Lance**. You’ve dragged out every tired old bit of faulty debating from the basement and given it a good and thorough airing. It still stinks. False equivalency, My post is my cite, Circular logic, rules lawyering, and even good old fashioned playground level nuh-uh! It’s too bad you don’t get my points. Maybe if you would listen more you would. I’m sure you’ll do so much better debating a real religious person though. That will really turn out well. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/157 "2012-09-17T17:44:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who the hell appointed you as religion’s proxy? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Who the hell appointed you as the person who gets to tell people what they can post about or why? Knock it off or take this to the BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/158 "2012-09-17T17:47:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As the person whose views were being mischaracterized, I didn’t think it was reasonable: you made assumptions about what I meant that ran counter to what I actually wrote. The assumption was reasonable, even if it was false. Reasonable means a reasonable person could look at the words and have the conclusion. It’s how misunderstandings happen, and they happen all the time. > [@](#): > > In the meantime, has this changed your position at all? It seems to me that I’ve at least illustrated that these issues can be more complicated than you were asserting. I would never say they are simple. In fact, I think I’m the one saying they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/159 "2012-09-17T17:52:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And who said I wasn’t religious anyway? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m sure you’ll do so much better debating a real religious person though. _On who’s behalf are you posting?_ Are you, or are you not religious? Are you playing devil’s advocate, or are you stating your own opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/160 "2012-09-17T17:52:15Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I would never say they are simple. In fact, I think I’m the one saying they aren’t. Throughout the thread you’ve been drawing simplistic distinctions between beliefs and actions. I agree other people have offered simplistic reasoning in some cases. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=9)