# What is the degree of Atheist responsibility to challenge belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707 "2012-09-14T17:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/161 "2012-09-17T18:13:13Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It’s too bad you don’t get my points. Maybe if you would listen more you would. > > I’m sure you’ll do so much better debating a real religious person though. That will really turn out well. Oh I understand your position just fine. The fact still remains that it is an illogical, untenable, intellectually dishonest one. You can keep crowing it as much as you like, but that won’t even begin to justify it. Something that we usually insist on in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/162 "2012-09-17T18:15:08Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Oh I understand your position just fine. The fact still remains that it is an illogical, untenable, intellectually dishonest one. How do you know you understand it? You have spent this whole post insisting that you can’t possibly be wrong. How do you know you’ve even begun to consider what I have to say? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/163 "2012-09-17T18:18:52Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > How do you know you understand it? > > You have spent this whole post insisting that you can’t possibly be wrong. How do you know you’ve even begun to consider what I have to say? Is there a name for the “If you _actually_ understood me, you’d agree with me” fallacy? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/164 "2012-09-17T18:26:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a name for the “If you _actually_ understood me, you’d agree with me” fallacy? You’re at risk of using at least three, but I can’t decide which: Argument from ignorance Argument from repetition Argument from silence If you think talking to me is useless, fine. We can stop. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/165 "2012-09-17T18:27:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > How do you know you understand it? > > You have spent this whole post insisting that you can’t possibly be wrong. How do you know you’ve even begun to consider what I have to say? AAAAAAAnnnnnd it’s “No true Scotsman” (a weird mutant form but nonetheless) bringing up the rear. That ought to be the whole pack then. Because what you have said, exhaustively, and at length, has long been tucked up and put to bed by philosophers and thinkers. There is a logical counter to every one of your logical fallacies, and the only real escape from _them_ is willful ignorance. I’m not the only one who has pointed this out to you in this thread. So either you are woefully under read on the topic, are a novice debater, legitimately hold the beliefs you are so inadequately defending, or are simply trolling the thread for attention. Further, your hijack didn’t even really address the core question of the thread: Does the responsibility to educate trump the responsibility to care for another persons’ feelings or emotional well-being? Your position seems to be a mash up of the following: 1.Everyone should be able to believe what they like, regardless of how ludicrous it is. 2.Beliefs are all equal 3.Beliefs are separate from actions, even if those actions are derived entirely from the beliefs 4. Nobody ever really changes their beliefs from challenge, so you shouldn’t try unless they specifically engage you in a conversation; in which case you should be respectful and treat them with kid gloves at all times lest you offend and be seen as a jerk. 5. Atheism is either equivalent to or IS a form of religion. All of these have been addressed at length in books, articles, and debate here on this forum. All of them have been soundly answered in the realms of logic, scientific studies, and philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/166 "2012-09-17T18:27:42Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Oh I understand your position just fine. Post it back to me then, in your own words, so I can confirm it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/167 "2012-09-17T18:34:06Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > AAAAAAAnnnnnd it’s “No true Scotsman” bringing up the rear. That ought to be the whole pack then. Wow, how’d you get that out of that? > [@](#): > > Because what you have said, exhaustively, and at length, has long been tucked up and put to bed by philosophers and thinkers. There is a logical counter to every one of your logical fallacies, and the only real escape from _them_ is willful ignorance. I’m not the only one who has pointed this out to you in this thread. So either you are woefully under read on the topic, are a novice debater, legitimately hold the beliefs you are so inadequately defending, or are simply trolling the thread for attention. Please stop telling me how smart you are and identify, in detail, the alleged fallacies. > [@](#): > > 1.Everyone should be able to believe what they like, regardless of how ludicrous it is. The negation would be “not everyone should be able to believe what they want.” Do you agree with that? Do you think atheists come out ahead? > [@](#): > > 2.Beliefs are all equal Nonsense. > [@](#): > > 3.Beliefs are separate from actions, even if those actions are derived entirely from the beliefs Of course that’s true. You wouldn’t want someone attacking atheism because of what atheists do, would you? > [@](#): > > 1. Nobody ever really changes their beliefs from challenge, so you shouldn’t try unless they specifically engage you in a conversation; in which case you should be respectful and treat them with kid gloves at all times lest you offend and be seen as a jerk. I don’t think you have done much to disprove this one. > [@](#): > > 1. Atheism is either equivalent to or IS a form of religion. Nope. What I’m saying is that atheists can be intolerant, smug, obnoxious, and completely disrespectful of other people - just like the religious people they complain about. Atheists should know better. > [@](#): > > All of these have been addressed at length in books, articles, and debate here on this forum. All of them have been soundly answered in the realms of logic, scientific studies, and philosophy. Then it’s settled! Life’s hard questions are answered! We can all go home! I think you’ve proven my point pretty well. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/168 "2012-09-17T18:40:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m done. We can hope. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/169 "2012-09-17T18:41:40Z")
Atheism isn’t a belief or belief system. Analogy fail. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/170 "2012-09-17T19:39:18Z")
> [@lance strongarm](#): > > > [@Acid Lamp](#): > > > > Oh I understand your position just fine. > > Post it back to me then, in your own words, so I can confirm it. **Acid Lamp** has accused you of being disingenuous, your response here illustrates that quite clearly I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/171 "2012-09-17T19:45:04Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > **Acid Lamp** has accused you of being disingenuous, your response here illustrates that quite clearly I’m afraid. Asking him to confirm that he understands me by allowing me to hear what he thinks I mean is disingenuous? Just the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/172 "2012-09-17T19:46:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Atheism isn’t a belief or belief system. Analogy fail. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist. It’s a belief system in that it relies on rationality. Nothing wrong with that, nothing controversial about it, nothing suggesting that it is a religion or any of that. What really impresses me is how atheists can, while still being atheists, act exactly like the religionists they complain about. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/173 "2012-09-17T19:47:09Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Asking him to confirm that he understands me by allowing me to hear what he thinks I mean is disingenuous? Just the opposite. Yes. Your thoughts are not that deep, there is no need to be coy. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/174 "2012-09-17T19:47:54Z")
Start a new thread if you want to discuss the status of atheism vis-a-vis religion and belief. We’ve done that a million times and it doesn’t affect the narrower issue raised by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/175 "2012-09-17T19:49:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Start a new thread if you want to discuss the status of atheism vis-a-vis religion and belief. We’ve done that a million times and it doesn’t affect the narrower issue raised by the OP. I most certainly do not want to discuss that one. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/176 "2012-09-17T19:50:57Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Yes. Your thoughts are not that deep, there is no need to be coy. No personal attacks please. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/177 "2012-09-17T19:54:18Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No personal attacks please. That wasn’t a personal attack, you already have a Pit thread going for that. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/178 "2012-09-17T19:59:06Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > That wasn’t a personal attack, I think it was. But the mods can decide. If it wasn’t an attack, it was irrelevant. So you have nothing more to say, I guess. > [@](#): > > you already have a Pit thread going for that. I don’t care. Though I wonder if people are attacking me like rabid religionists attacking an atheist though. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/179 "2012-09-17T20:02:12Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I think it was. But the mods can decide. Please report the post rather than weighing in yourself. > [@](#): > > Though I wonder if people are attacking me like rabid religionists attacking an atheist though. Enough already. Get back to the subject rather than making pronouncements about atheists (or on behalf of theists). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707/180 "2012-09-17T20:23:58Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > > Atheism doesn’t lead to anything. It’s an absence. I think this must also answer the titular question of the thread. Atheism cannot impart responsibility, if it’s just an absence. [/QUOTE] Yes, but the fact that we are human beings _does_ impart responsibility in pretty much every moral philosophy, so atheists have responsibilities anyway; which brings us back to the question in the OP, which ones do we have? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-degree-of-atheist-responsibility-to-challenge-belief/634707.md?page=10)