# What is the difference between a clan and a sept? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630 "2013-08-19T12:00:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/1 "2013-08-19T12:00:29Z")
Hi, I’ve been unable to find out the difference between a clan and a sept. Is a sept an offshoot of a clan? Today we talk of surname variations. Are these septs? So O’Reilly and O’Riley or some variation would be a sept of the O’Reilly clan. Is that correct? I look forward to your feedback. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/2 "2013-08-19T12:20:02Z")
A sept is a branch of a clan, but those spelling variations aren’t necessarily separate septs: they’re the consequences of those who wrote them down not asking “how do you spell this”? My grandfather’s second lastname, his sister’s second lastname and their mother’s first lastname are all spelled different - because the registrars didn’t ask, not because they shouldn’t be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/3 "2013-08-19T14:37:30Z")
Also, with Irish & Scottish clan names, their American descendants are invariably spelling them in English, which is not their language of origin and represents its sounds differently, so spellling variation is to be expected. If your name were Ó Raghailligh (that’s the Irish spelling), and you pronounced it using sounds which are not found in English, how would you spell it? Typically, _Ó_ becomes _O’_ (with a pointless apostrophe: it’s not abbreviating anything), _Raghai_ becomes _Rei_ or _Ri_, and _lligh_ becomes _lly_ or _ley_. “Orylee” would be just as accurate rendition of the Irish. \*Oraílli \*would be the way a Spaniard would spell it, and incidentally the Spaniard’s pronunciation would be much closer to the original as they’d get both of the consonants right. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/4 "2013-08-19T18:10:18Z")
But is the apostrophe pointless? It indicates that the “O” is to be pronounced as “O”, a separate syllable, which is otherwise rare in English, rather than to be pronounced together as one syllable with the following consonant, the “r”. Personally, if I came across “Orylee” without knowing how to pronounce it, I would pronounce it “or-y-lee”. Is that how “Ó Raghailligh” is pronounced in Irish? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/5 "2013-08-19T18:29:14Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > \*Oraílli \*would be the way a Spaniard would spell it, and incidentally the Spaniard’s pronunciation would be much closer to the original as they’d get both of the consonants right. [nit]Orraili[/nit] - it’s got three vowels and the stress is definitely on the a; since the stress is on the syllable before last and it ends in a vowel, no graphic accent. Oraílli would have four syllables. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/6 "2013-08-19T18:34:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But is the apostrophe pointless? > > It indicates that the “O” is to be pronounced as “O”, a separate syllable, which is otherwise rare in English, rather than to be pronounced together as one syllable with the following consonant, the “r”. > > Personally, if I came across “Orylee” without knowing how to pronounce it, I would pronounce it “or-y-lee”. Is that how “Ó Raghailligh” is pronounced in Irish? I usually hear the Irish pronounced “O Rahilly”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/7 "2013-08-19T19:07:56Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > [nit]Orraili[/nit] - it’s got three vowels and the stress is definitely on the a; since the stress is on the syllable before last and it ends in a vowel, no graphic accent. Oraílli would have four syllables. Nit accepted: I wasn’t sure how to indicate /a:i/. But two -L-s, please! It’s /l[sup]j[/sup]/, not /l/. (And, I think, one -R-: it’s the same phenomenon in Spanish where there are two different lengths of rolled r, but I’m not sure if Ó causes the shortening or not. I think that only exists in Munster Irish and Scottish Gaelic, anyway.) > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I usually hear the Irish pronounced “O Rahilly”. That’s Ó Raithile in Irish, a different name. Not that I’d be surprised to hear one confused for the other: depending on dialect, the “raghai” part could be pronounced “rahi” in English. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/8 "2013-08-19T19:14:51Z")
Too slow reply: **Northern Piper** , Ó is a nice, long o, as in _toad_, but with no diphthong or offglide. _Raghaille_ is a rolled R followed by A as in _father_; many dialects would still pronounce the GH as a voiced velar fricative, not found in English, but some reduce it to H and others omit it. So _Ragha_ could be /raƔa/, /raha/, or /ra:/, first syllable stressed. The final syllable is a palatal L followed by a long EE as in _feel_. The final -GH hasn’t been pronounced for many centuries. The English “rile” of the first syllable is an attempt to render the Irish _rall_ with a palatal L, which we can’t have in final syllables. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-a-clan-and-a-sept/666630/9 "2013-08-19T22:36:27Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > That’s Ó Raithile in Irish, a different name. Not that I’d be surprised to hear one confused for the other: depending on dialect, the “raghai” part could be pronounced “rahi” in English. The O’Reillys I know use it when saying their name in Irish, but it might be just to make it clearer, distinguish that they are using the Irish language form.