# What is the difference between liberty and freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544 "2023-03-01T15:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/1 "2023-03-01T15:04:39Z")
Just read in an article in [the Conversation](https://theconversation.com/30-years-later-waco-siege-still-resonates-especially-among-anti-government-extremists-200071?utm_source=DamnInteresting) that > What unites many of the groups influenced by Waco is a belief that the federal government is tyrannical and willing to attack citizens while depriving them of liberty, freedom and firearms. Leaving apart the fact that the sentence sounds farcically monthy-pythonesque in my European ears it seems to me that when translating it into German I would have to write _\> […] die Bundesregierung ist tyrannisch und bereit, die Bürger anzugreifen und ihnen **Freiheit, Freiheit** und Schusswaffen zu entziehen_ and into Spanish it would read _[…] el gobierno federal es tiránico y está dispuesto a atacar a los ciudadanos privándoles **de libertad, de libertad** y de armas de fuego_ So is there a difference between _ **liberty** _ and _ **freedom** _? And if so, what is it? Reminds me of _ **safety** _ and _ **security** _, which are not easy to translate either, though _seguridad_ and _protección_ sometimes fit the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/2 "2023-03-01T15:14:36Z")
My sense is that “liberty” refers to actions and “freedom” refers to more personal autonomy. Liberty is the freedom to act. Freedom is emancipation. ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/3 "2023-03-01T15:27:54Z")
I think there are really good definitions in the Oxford English Dictionary. I dont have a subscription for it. I think it would say what Elmer Fudd said there but am not sure. ---
**Author:** ![fordgt100](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fordgt100](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fordgt100)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/4 "2023-03-01T15:31:03Z")
One could probably use the two words to illustrate the same thing, they seem to be fundamentally interchangeable when it gets down to it. Independence would be something different. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/5 "2023-03-01T15:35:31Z")
I’m thinking that the brilliant minds who proudly vote for expanded 2A “freedoms” to defend against ‘tyranny’ while _simultaneously_ voting for an $800 billion military which would be used to tyrannize them may not be too clear on what is meant by either “liberty” or “freedom”. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/6 "2023-03-01T15:45:37Z")
It’s a rhetorical device. My Google-fu has failed me but it’s commonly used in English legal terminology. You use two synonyms one of latin/French origin (liberty) one of old-english/Germanic origin (freedom) for emphasis. Another example is “without let or hindrance” (there are many more but both squishy chemical brain and internet brain failing me 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/7 "2023-03-01T15:46:43Z")
I think they’re much the same thing, just with different linguistic roots: “freedom” from Old English, “liberty” from those invading Normans: > **[freedom | Etymology, origin and meaning of freedom by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/freedom)** > > FREEDOM Meaning: "power of self-determination, state of free will; emancipation from slavery, deliverance;" see free… See origin and meaning of freedom. > **[liberty | Etymology, origin and meaning of liberty by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/liberty)** > > LIBERTY Meaning: "free choice, freedom to do as one chooses," also "freedom from the bondage of sin," from Old French… See origin and meaning of liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/8 "2023-03-01T15:49:36Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Another example is “without let or hindrance” (there are many more but both squishy chemical brain and internet brain failing me 🙂 ) One of the most common is “last will [OE] and testament [OF/Latin].” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/9 "2023-03-01T15:54:42Z")
As others have said, the two terms are generally equivalent in meaning. In situations where they are used together and it’s implied they mean two different things, my understanding is that freedom is something an individual has and liberty is something a society has. So you ideally want to live in a society that promotes liberty so the people living in that society have freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/10 "2023-03-01T16:03:49Z")
Liberty is a personal right under the 5th and 14th Amendments: > … nor be deprived of life, **liberty** , or property, without due process of law ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/11 "2023-03-01T16:08:04Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Another example is “without let or hindrance” (there are many more but both squishy chemical brain and internet brain failing me 🙂 ) Here’s one a lot of people have heard of: flotsam and jetsam. They mean things floating in the water after coming off a ship. And there actually is a technical distinction between the two. Jetsam is something which was intentionally thrown off a ship. Flotsam is something which fell off a ship due to weather or by accident. Depending on local law, the original owner may have a claim to flotsam but not to jetsam. There’s also lagan, which is something that was intentionally thrown off a ship but was marked in some way that it would be recoverable. Again, the ability to claim ownership of lagan may vary from flotsam or jetsam. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/12 "2023-03-01T16:12:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > One of the most common is “last will [OE] and testament [OF/Latin].” Also aid and abet. I did wonder if the writer of the original article realized they were using a retorical device when they wrote that. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And there actually is a technical distinction between the two. Jetsam is something which was intentionally thrown off a ship. Flotsam is something which fell off a ship due to weather or by accident. Depending on local law, the original owner may have a claim to flotsam but not to jetsam. I’d argue that doesn’t count then as “flotsam and jetsam” is actually different to just flotsam or jetsam (and they arent from different latin/Germanic roots). Liberty and Freedom (and aid and abet, let or hindrance, will and testament, etc) is deliberately using two synonyms, either of which could be used in place of the other without losing information, purely for effect. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/13 "2023-03-01T16:15:22Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > is deliberately using two synonyms, either of which could be used in place of the other without losing information, purely for effect. The origin of the couplets wasn’t just for effect, though. The practice started in Law French, where an English word and a French word would be used to assist in comprehension, where some people only spoke English and some only spoke French. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/14 "2023-03-01T16:20:01Z")
I think the denotations in modern English are identical or virtually identical. In modern political discourse in (at least) the United States, “liberty” is more often utilized by the conservative crowd and (to my ears at least) has thus taken on the connotation of an unfettered business endeavor, whereas “freedom” is more fondly embraced by the leftish folks and (again, to my ears if not necessarily to yours) is flavored with emancipation from oppression and exploitation. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/15 "2023-03-01T16:21:27Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m thinking that the brilliant minds who proudly vote for expanded 2A “freedoms” to defend against ‘tyranny’ while _simultaneously_ voting for an $800 billion military which would be used to tyrannize them may not be too clear on what is meant by either “liberty” or “freedom”. Perhaps they have confused the words of Patrick Henry to be “Give me liberty and give me death!”. Those founding fathers are so misunderstood, lets just twist their words to say what we think they meant. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/16 "2023-03-01T17:41:30Z")
There are senses in which they’re different. “To take liberties” means to act as if you’re free to do something that you shouldn’t be doing because it improperly infringes on somebody else. That’s kind of an oldfashioned phrase, though. I think that in current use they do tend to mean the same thing, and it’s a rhetorical flourish. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/17 "2023-03-01T18:20:58Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There are senses in which they’re different. “To take liberties” means to act as if you’re free to do something that you shouldn’t be doing because it improperly infringes on somebody else. _nods_ Likewise “libertine” meant someone who takes liberties they shouldn’t oughta. But mostly oldfashioned and outdated, as you say. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/18 "2023-03-01T18:29:39Z")
I find it hard to distinguish them. In my mind, they both mean a situation in which no-one else has the power to compel me to do something I don’t want to, or forbid me to do something I do want to. But of course since we all live in a complex society, it’s an extremely grey area. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/19 "2023-03-01T18:42:35Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > It’s a rhetorical device. My Google-fu has failed me but it’s commonly used in English legal terminology. I think it would fall under **synonymous parallelism** , the simplest form of that. > **[Synonymous parallelism | Hebrew literature](https://www.britannica.com/topic/synonymous-parallelism)** > > Other articles where synonymous parallelism is discussed: biblical literature: Psalms: Synonymous parallelism involves the repetition in the second part of what has already been expressed in the first, while simply varying the words. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544/20 "2023-03-01T20:23:11Z")
“Freedom” is for everyday usage. “Liberty” is a bit more highbrow, and is usually used when talking about inalienable rights and such. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/980544.md?page=2)