# What is the difference between rape and incest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 22, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241 "2012-08-22T02:19:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/41 "2012-08-22T23:23:07Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Not “no different,” but also a special case, because of the genetic implications. That is, some people who oppose abortion in general might say that in certain special cases such as rape (because you wouldn’t want to impose additional trauma on the victim) or incest (because of the possibilities of genetic abnormalities in the child), they would allow abortion. I doubt that. Those are the same people who object to aborting fetuses that could have Down Syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/42 "2012-08-22T23:27:43Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Not “no different,” but also a special case, because of the genetic implications. That is, some people who oppose abortion in general might say that in certain special cases such as rape (because you wouldn’t want to impose additional trauma on the victim) or incest (because of the possibilities of genetic abnormalities in the child), they would allow abortion. I don’t think that is the basis for the incest exception. If it’s simply the _possibility_ of genetic abnormalities that justifies abortion, then that same principle should allow abortions if amniotic testing shows the foetus has an _actual_ genetic abnormality, such as Downs. Yet pro-lifers don’t usually agree with abortion in those cases, do they? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/43 "2012-08-22T23:40:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think there are also some jurisdictions around the world where uncle-niece is an allowed pairing. I don’t know about aunt-nephew, though: The sorts of places where uncle-niece is allowed tend not to be renowned for their gender parity. Theoretically, an uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage is possible in France, but it requires a presidential dispense. I guess this was probably originally intended in case of pregnancy, but I’ve no clue how often such a dispense is granted nowadays or even if it’s ever done. (And there’s no law against any kind of incest if neither participant is a minor) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/44 "2012-08-23T00:08:36Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’ve no clue how often such a dispense is granted nowadays or even if it’s ever done. I couldn’t find any recent figures (the most recent dating back from the late 50s). There were about 10-20 dispenses granted each year during the 90s, but they include other types of relatives, like a father in law marrying his daughter in law. No clue about uncle-aunt/niece-nephew specifically. However I discovered two things : -Germany and Netherlands have both lifted their bans on these marriages (uncle/niece, I mean). -Not really related, a procedure I was aware of apparently only exists in France (I had assumed it was done in other countries as well) : post-mortem marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/45 "2012-08-23T00:41:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **md2000** : > > First cousins, according to a recent thread, share approximately 3% same DNA (assuming only 1 cousin connection). This is significantly less than siblings (about 50%), half-siblings (25%) or parent-child (50%). Uncle-niece etc. would be about 13%. Actually, first cousins are 1/8 (12.5%) consanguineous, and uncle-niece etc. is 1/4 (25%). And to be strictly nitpicky, the vast majority of our DNA is shared among all humans, but I know that’s not what you meant there. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/46 "2012-08-23T00:54:37Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Not “no different,” but also a special case, because of the genetic implications. That is, some people who oppose abortion in general might say that in certain special cases such as rape (because you wouldn’t want to impose additional trauma on the victim) or incest (because of the possibilities of genetic abnormalities in the child), they would allow abortion. But in one instance, the sex was a choice for both parties. If concerns for genetic abnormalities were so paramount, then the sex that allowed that pregnancy wouldn’t have occurred in the first place, would it? The same can’t be said of the sex that took place for the pregnancy resulting from the rape. That was involuntary sex, on the part of the woman (in this instance). So how can they even be on the same level of “special case”? ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/47 "2012-08-23T01:42:34Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > -Not really related, a procedure I was aware of apparently only exists in France (I had assumed it was done in other countries as well) : post-mortem marriages. OK, now, you can’t just leave this dangling in front of us with no further explanation! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/48 "2012-08-23T02:30:46Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Haha! And all niggers love watermelons and fried chicken! How is this shit allowed on this board? Are there mods here or do they only moderate slams against gay people? \*\*Moderator Warning \*\* **jtgain** , you’ve been here long enough to know that this kind or gratuitous use of racial slurs is out of place in GQ. If you were so offended by the posts, you should have reported them. This is an official warning. Do not do this again. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Only RI. You’d think West Virginia would be more lenient… 🙂 > [@Muffin](#): > > This one wins the trifecta: southern state, trailer home, drunken sibling sex. **Moderator Note** Let’s keep the regional slurs out of GQ too, even if intended as a joke. I’m making this a note instead of a warning because the language is not over the top as in **jtgain’s.** Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/49 "2012-08-23T03:02:02Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I don’t think that is the basis for the incest exception. If it’s simply the _possibility_ of genetic abnormalities that justifies abortion, then that same principle should allow abortions if amniotic testing shows the foetus has an _actual_ genetic abnormality, such as Downs. Yet pro-lifers don’t usually agree with abortion in those cases, do they? I think it’s a calculated convenience. It allows the extremists to get support lot of people who find abortion somewhat disagreeable but not horrible, and certainly think it’s OK for “poor innocent victims”. > [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, first cousins are 1/8 (12.5%) consanguineous, and uncle-niece etc. is 1/4 (25%). > > And to be strictly nitpicky, the vast majority of our DNA is shared among all humans, but I know that’s not what you meant there. Oops sorry, the 3% was second cousins. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/50 "2012-08-23T20:45:50Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > But in one instance, the sex was a choice for both parties. If concerns for genetic abnormalities were so paramount, then the sex that allowed that pregnancy wouldn’t have occurred in the first place, would it? The same can’t be said of the sex that took place for the pregnancy resulting from the rape. That was involuntary sex, on the part of the woman (in this instance). So how can they even be on the same level of “special case”? I think that religious people who would make the exception for incest would see it as something morally repugnant and totally against God’s law – even more so than adultery or sex outside of marriage. Like rape, they would see it as so deviant that they would be willing to make an exception. The people who engaged in consensual incest would essentially be the equivalent of the rapist – violating a powerful moral taboo. I’m strongly pro-choice, but I can see why someone who was against abortion might make an exception in the case of incest. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/51 "2012-08-23T21:10:41Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > OK, now, you can’t just leave this dangling in front of us with no further explanation! It seemed to me it was self-explanatory. In some circumstances, you can be granted a dispense to marry someone who died. In practice (the law itself isn’t that clear, since the dispense is an arbitrary right of the president, like the right of grace), and if I remember correctly, you can get one if : -You can show that the deceased person unambiguously took steps to marry you And : -You had children together or you’re pregnant at the time of death. If you want weirder (but not officially sanctioned) parents of young men deceased unmarried in China might seek a dead bride for their son. They pay the bride family for that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/52 "2012-08-24T15:40:31Z")
Oh, another point: What constitutes “incest” is a legal and cultural thing, not necessarily biological. For instance, a grandparent and grandchild are about equally closely related as an uncle and niece or aunt and nephew, yet some cultures will ban the one but not the other. And some cultures might prohibit some relationships as incestuous despite involving no common blood at all: For instance, Henry VIII’s argument for annulment of his first marriage was that it was incestuous by virtue of his wife being the widow of his brother. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/53 "2012-08-24T16:22:22Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > [QUOTE=md2000] > > … siblings (about 50%), half-siblings (25%) or parent-child (50%)… > > Actually, first cousins are 1/8 (12.5%) consanguineous, and uncle-niece etc. is 1/4 (25%). > > And to be strictly nitpicky, the vast majority of our DNA is shared among all humans, but I know that’s not what you meant there. Oops sorry, the 3% was second cousins. [/QUOTE] Yes. More generally: You share 2^(-2k-m-1) DNA with your k’th cousin, m times removed, or 2^(-2k-m-2) if _half_-cousin. To apply this for relations closer than cousin, just note that siblings are 0th cousins, and uncles and nieces 0th cousins 1x removed. (To fit the template, a grandparent, I’m afraid, is viewed as a (-1)'th half-cousin twice removed. :smack: ) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/54 "2012-08-24T16:30:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, another point: What constitutes “incest” is a legal and cultural thing, not necessarily biological. … For instance, Henry VIII’s argument for annulment of his first marriage was that it was incestuous by virtue of his wife being the widow of his brother. Yes. The inbreeding disadvantage of incest may not have been understood; the taboos were for other reasons. Note, BTW, that another such “incest” matter applies to Henry VIII, specifically in connection with his children Henry Carey and Catherine Carey. Some argue that these were probably not Henry’s children because he never openly acknowledged them. But Henry _could not_ acknowledge them! To do so would be to admit to fornication with Mary Boleyn, which would have provided grounds to annul his marriage to Mary’s sister Anne. ---
**Author:** ![Tamex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Tamex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamex)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241/55 "2012-08-24T23:28:24Z")
Perhaps the “and incest” part of the exception is to deal with circumstances where you didn’t know it was incest. Say a guy and a girl meet, fall in love and have sex. It isn’t until she brings the guy home to meet her parents that she finds out that he’s her long lost brother! …well, it could happen… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-rape-and-incest/632241.md?page=2)