# What IS the difference between wolves and dogs and other canids, really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 3, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-wolves-and-dogs-and-other-canids-really/815346 "2018-06-03T06:48:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-wolves-and-dogs-and-other-canids-really/815346/21 "2018-06-06T17:49:15Z")
> [@Richox](#): > > The bolding is mine, and i find this thought really interesting. I’ve read a range of articles and letters regarding the history of the human-canine relationship. Mostly on the pop-science side of things! > > Is anyone with some detailed knowledge of the matter aware of just how important Dogs are to our development/evolution? Could the human species have survived through some historically lean times without our faithful companions? Don’t know, but I believe it was Jon Franklin in _The Wolf in the Parlor: How the Dog Came to Share Your Brain_ who noted that at the time we began living with dogs,\* the volume of the brain decreased about 10% _in both dogs [relative to wolves] and humans_. From this, he speculated that we humans “farmed out” some of our sensory, guarding and hunting tasks to dogs, permitting us to spend less energy on brain development, and dogs let us make decisions and help find food and shelter, permitting them to spend less energy on _their_ brain development. Specialization and all that. \*It’s pretty speculative, but I find it charming. The weakest point in this “theory” is that we do _not_, in fact, know when dogs started living with humans. not even approximately. An extensive article in last year’s Scientific American pointed out that there exists plausible evidence for the domestication of dogs having occurred: [ul] [li]10,000 years ago, [/li][li]16,300 years ago[/li][li]20,000-40,000 years ago[/li][li]35,000 years ago[/li][li]75,000 years ago[/li][li]100,000 years ago [/li][li]135,000 years ago[/li][/ul] All of those dates have evidence supporting them, but they conflict wildly in time. Currently a large-scale DNA study is underway to try and determine once and for all if any date at all can be pinned down. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-wolves-and-dogs-and-other-canids-really/815346/22 "2018-06-06T17:58:46Z")
All that I know is that if you start calling dogs dumb, regardless of how true that is or how much evidence you may have, all of the ‘dog parents’ of the world are going to have your head. That’s not a hill worth dying on. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-wolves-and-dogs-and-other-canids-really/815346/23 "2018-06-06T21:30:40Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I have also read that the process of domestication (at least with dogs and foxes) often results in a tendency towards urinary incontinence along with the desirable traits. Hey! My canids are generally housebroken, urinarilly (as long as I keep them out of my room) and only crap in the kitchen if I sleep late. And keep them out of my room. ☹ > [@Derleth](#): > > Right. Humans and dogs co-evolved, and dogs certainly wouldn’t exist without humans (and I’m not sure humans would exist in entirely the same way without dogs)… Nah. We’d’ve been dead meat tens of thousands years ago if it weren’t for those craptastic monsters. (looking for a cite) > [@senoy](#): > > All that I know is that if you start calling dogs dumb, regardless of how true that is or how much evidence you may have, all of the ‘dog parents’ of the world are going to have your head. That’s not a hill worth dying on. 🙂 Not remotely true! Dumbfuck doesn’t seem to be offended, though he’s too stupid to recognize an insult, and the Stupid Fucking Dogs don’t seem to care. And I guarantee their mothers would agree. > [@Sailboat](#): > > Don’t know, but I believe it was Jon Franklin in _The Wolf in the Parlor: How the Dog Came to Share Your Brain_ who noted that at the time we began living with dogs,\* the volume of the brain decreased about 10% _in both dogs [relative to wolves] and humans_. From this, he speculated that we humans “farmed out” some of our sensory, guarding and hunting tasks to dogs, permitting us to spend less energy on brain development, and dogs let us make decisions and help find food and shelter, permitting them to spend less energy on _their_ brain development. Specialization and all that. It’s called “delegation.” We’re the managers and took over that role from their mothers, though I’ve delegated that to my smarter bitches. Dogs are too stupid to command, or even to survive, and i assume alpha she-wolves would agree. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-wolves-and-dogs-and-other-canids-really/815346/24 "2018-06-06T21:36:08Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Don’t know, but I believe it was Jon Franklin in \*The Wolf in the Parlor: How the Dog Came to Share \*It’s pretty speculative, but I find it charming. The weakest point in this “theory” is that we do _not_, in fact, know when dogs started living with humans. not even approximately. An extensive article in last year’s Scientific American pointed out that there exists plausible evidence for the domestication of dogs having occurred: > > [ul] > [li]10,000 years ago, [/li][li]16,300 years ago[/li][li]20,000-40,000 years ago[/li][li]35,000 years ago[/li][li]75,000 years ago[/li][li]100,000 years ago [/li][li]135,000 years ago[/li][/ul] > > All of those dates have evidence supporting them, but they conflict wildly in time. Currently a large-scale DNA study is underway to try and determine once and for all if any date at all can be pinned down. As a guy, with acceptance of my limitations, I lean toward the older dates. But only for females. Boy dogs are as dumb as boy humans, and stupidity cannot be dated cleanly. **dz** , BA Anthropology, but with realistic expectations, 1976, but adjusted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-difference-between-wolves-and-dogs-and-other-canids-really/815346.md?page=1)