# What is the earliest example of Jesus on the cross? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 14, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910 "2013-03-14T13:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/21 "2013-03-19T05:02:17Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > “Setting the canon” was a process of declaring which documents would be part of an official set of holy scriptures. The documents were written well before that. > > Most of the letters from Paul were actually from Paul. So, that had to be written sometime between 30 - 60 AD. Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke also wrote Acts of the Apostles in which he talks about “we did this and we did that.” The ‘we’ is he and Paul. And since Luke copied from Mark, that dates Mark to about the 50s and Luke in the 60s/70s. > > Other types of detective work puts Mathew at about 70-80s and John at 90-120s. That’s a somewhat unorthodox estimate about the dating of Mark and Luke. Most scholars put Mark no earlier than 60, no later than 75, with Luke and Matthew around ten or fifteen years after Mark. Not that we have hard evidence of an exact date for Mark at all, but the scholarly consensus for Mark is usually after Paul’s writings because none of Paul’s writings seem to be aware of the Gospels; for instance, none of these churches in Corinth, Phillipi, Rome, Galatia, or anywhere else seem to have copies of Mark or any other Gospel account. Surely if Paul were aware of such a thing, he’d reference it in his letters either to use it to bolster his points if he thought it were true or to repudiate it if he didn’t. He does, after all, quote at length from the Old Testament and seems to assume that his audience is familiar with it. Even in Paul’s longest and latest letter, his epistle to the Romans from about 58, he doesn’t reference the Gospels in any way, or even suggest that written accounts of Jesus’ life were being circulated. It’s barely possible that Mark was written earlier than that, but the Christian community world-wide was still very small, and the Greek-speaking Gentile community, in which the Gospels were written and Paul was working, even smaller. It’s conceivable that Gospels like Mark and Q were around in the 50s, but there isn’t any actual of it, even implied or circumstantial evidence. I’ve got no quibbles with your dates for Matthew or John. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/22 "2013-03-19T15:25:01Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > They must have added that crucifix after I left the church as we definitely didn’t have crosses. We took pride in that. > > That would be an interesting question as to when the Mormons started to disdain them. > > Humm. Life was so much more difficult in the ancient world bg (before [google](http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12256269)). > > So, while the cross wasn’t ever really a strong part of Mormonism from the beginning, it wasn’t until the 1950s that its use would became the scandal it is now. 1.) The crucufiction I saw in the visitor’s center was a painting, not a physical cruifix. And this was in the 1980s. When did you leave? Not that it matters an awful lot – the Visitor Centers were constantly-evolving exhibits that were changing even while I was there. 2.) i dispute that the anti-cross/crucifix thing is really recent. I’ve seen an awful lot of LDS art and architecture from the entire history (including stuff the anti-Mormons dredge up that the Faithful would rather not see displayed). I can’t recall a cross or crucifix from any point in the history, except for that rather large Visitor Center painting of the Crucifiction. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/23 "2013-03-19T16:33:27Z")
Here’s that painting of the Crucifiction, which is apparently still up on the wall in the North Visitor’s Center: [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/3141/2280580353_ff39460b2f_b.jpg "The Crucifixion of Jesus") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/baggis/2280580353/) ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/24 "2013-03-19T17:43:43Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > That would be an interesting question as to when the Mormons started to disdain them. Mormons always disdained the cross, as I understand it. Their focus is on Jesus’ visitations to North America, is it not? Thus the end of the story for all other Christian sects is just Act II for Mormons. (And who says there are no second acts in American lives?) One of the things that really snapped the cross-as-symbol into focus for me was a bit of Robert Heinlein ‘making strange’ in which he mentioned a culture whose messiah was hanged… and all religious works were thus marked with a stylized gallows. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/25 "2013-03-19T18:16:15Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > One of the things that really snapped the cross-as-symbol into focus for me was a bit of Robert Heinlein ‘making strange’ in which he mentioned a culture whose messiah was hanged… and all religious works were thus marked with a stylized gallows. I remember a story about a planet where the messiah was broken on a wheel-shaped torture device, and that was the symbol of their religion. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/26 "2013-03-20T02:06:39Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > 1.) The crucufiction I saw in the visitor’s center was a painting, not a physical cruifix. And this was in the 1980s. When did you leave? Not that it matters an awful lot – the Visitor Centers were constantly-evolving exhibits that were changing even while I was there. It was in the mid 80s, but the last I would have visited there would have been prior to 1981 when I went on a mission to Japan. I do remember a sermon given by a general authority who commented that in the visitors’ center, “we have the living Christ” instead of the dead Christ. > [@](#): > > 2.) i dispute that the anti-cross/crucifix thing is really recent. I’ve seen an awful lot of LDS art and architecture from the entire history (including stuff the anti-Mormons dredge up that the Faithful would rather not see displayed). I can’t recall a cross or crucifix from any point in the history, except for that rather large Visitor Center painting of the Crucifiction. Did you read the linked article? There is a difference between not using crosses and being venomously anti-cross; between “we don’t use them” and “they are the mark of the beast, which is why the Catholics wear them.” The “non” vs. the “anti.” Crosses were never part of the Mormon religion, and probably one reason is that early Mormons didn’t see themselves as “Christian” as part of a group of like-minded fellow adherents to a common faith but as the One True[sup]TM[/sup] faith. Smith and his followers professed a belief that God had declared other Christian churches were > [@](#): > > they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” As for no crosses ever being wrong, you are mistaken here. From an article in the Mormon Church-owned newspaper The [Deseret News](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705378769/Sunstone-speaker-attempts-to-explain-LDS-aversion-to-cross.html?pg=all) > [@](#): > > Instead, Reed found the cross all over Mormondom. It appeared as jewelry on Brigham Young’s wives and daughters. It appeared in floral arrangements in funerals. It appeared as tie tacks on men’s ties and watch fobs on men’s vests. It appeared on cattle as the official LDS Church brand. Crosses were on church windows, attic vents, stained-glass windows and pulpits. They were on gravestones and quilts. > > Even two temples, the Hawaiian and the Cardston, Alberta Temple were described in a 1923 general conference as being built in the shape of a cross. Reed said the cross “taboo” was grass roots and began around the turn of the 20th century. The article leads with an example of a large cross which the Mormons wanted to place on a prominent location in the Salt Lake Valley in the early twentieth century as an example of an earlier ambivolence toward that symbol. It goes on to quote the historian Reed as saying the nineteenth century American Protestants had an aversion to crosses as an anti-Catholic thing in response to the growing number of Catholic emigrants. However, there was an eventual Protestant acceptance of the cross, while the Mormons strong aversion developed later. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/27 "2013-03-20T05:14:53Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I once attended an art history class in which the teacher showed comparative slides of Apollo as the Good Shepherd, then Christ as the Good Shepherd. It was a community college, but it sounded decently researched. Nitpick on the iconography: it was Hermes, not Apollo, who was depicted carrying a lamb. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/28 "2013-03-20T12:23:09Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It was in the mid 80s, but the last I would have visited there would have been prior to 1981 when I went on a mission to Japan. I do remember a sermon given by a general authority who commented that in the visitors’ center, “we have the living Christ” instead of the dead Christ. > > Did you read the linked article? > > There is a difference between not using crosses and being venomously anti-cross; between “we don’t use them” and “they are the mark of the beast, which is why the Catholics wear them.” The “non” vs. the “anti.” > > Crosses were never part of the Mormon religion, and probably one reason is that early Mormons didn’t see themselves as “Christian” as part of a group of like-minded fellow adherents to a common faith but as the One True[sup]TM[/sup] faith. Smith and his followers professed a belief that God had declared other Christian churches were > > As for no crosses ever being wrong, you are mistaken here. From an article in the Mormon Church-owned newspaper The [Deseret News](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705378769/Sunstone-speaker-attempts-to-explain-LDS-aversion-to-cross.html?pg=all)The article leads with an example of a large cross which the Mormons wanted to place on a prominent location in the Salt Lake Valley in the early twentieth century as an example of an earlier ambivolence toward that symbol. It goes on to quote the historian Reed as saying the nineteenth century American Protestants had an aversion to crosses as an anti-Catholic thing in response to the growing number of Catholic emigrants. However, there was an eventual Protestant acceptance of the cross, while the Mormons strong aversion developed later. All interesting, but I was referring to church art. Aside from buildings being in the shapes of crosses, there doesn’t seem to be any. Putting a big prominent cross in the Salt Lake Valley would indeed be counter to this, but it didn’t happen. You won’t find crosses on any of the Cuch’s temples or tabernacles, including the Kikland temple. I used to live near one of the older wards in the valley, built way before the 21950s, and it had no crosses (and wasn’t built in cruciform). I’ve seen the holdings of the LDS museum of historical art and gone through numerous books of church history. People may, indeed, have worn crosses as jewelry – this is the first I’ve heard of it (I recall no examples from the above sources, and never saw it among my LDS friends either in Utah or elsewhere). But I wasn’t arguing that Mormons didn’t use crosses anywhere – I was making the point about Church Art. Church windows and vents? I’;d like to see examples – i’ve never encountered any. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/29 "2013-03-20T14:32:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I remember a story about a planet where the messiah was broken on a wheel-shaped torture device, and that was the symbol of their religion. Ever heard of a Catherine Wheel? It’s a firework that’s circular, sometimes with radii or spokes like a cartwheel. You’ve just described the martyrdom of St Catherine of Alexandria which made the wheel her symbol and gave the name to the firework. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/30 "2013-03-20T17:51:21Z")
> [@Bob\_X](#): > > Nitpick on the iconography: it was Hermes, not Apollo, who was depicted carrying a lamb. If I’m remembering correctly, one had the name Apollo written into the composition. Not that it isn’t regular iconography for Hermes. Although I seem to remember a story of Hermes stealing Apollo’s flock by forcing them to walk backwards, so that their tracks looked like they had just disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Reed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@Mike\_Reed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Reed)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/31 "2013-03-20T20:35:01Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > They must have added that crucifix after I left the church as we definitely didn’t have crosses. We took pride in that. > > That would be an interesting question as to when the Mormons started to disdain them. > > Humm. Life was so much more difficult in the ancient world bg (before [google](http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12256269)). > > So, while the cross wasn’t ever really a strong part of Mormonism from the beginning, it wasn’t until the 1950s that its use would became the scandal it is now. Indeed. If anyone is interested in learning more about my research, my MA thesis was expanded and revised to be published as a book. Its title is “Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo” and is available on Amazon. You can also read a review of the book here: [http://forums.mormonletters.org/yaf\_postsm2532\_Reed-Banishing-the-Cross-The-Emergence-of-a-Mormon-Taboo-reviewed-by-Boyd-J-Petersen.aspx#2532](http://forums.mormonletters.org/yaf_postsm2532_Reed-Banishing-the-Cross-The-Emergence-of-a-Mormon-Taboo-reviewed-by-Boyd-J-Petersen.aspx#2532) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/32 "2013-03-20T22:57:52Z")
> [@Mike\_Reed](#): > > Indeed. If anyone is interested in learning more about my research, my MA thesis was expanded and revised to be published as a book. Its title is “Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo” and is available on Amazon. > > You can also read a review of the book here: [http://forums.mormonletters.org/yaf\_postsm2532\_Reed-Banishing-the-Cross-The-Emergence-of-a-Mormon-Taboo-reviewed-by-Boyd-J-Petersen.aspx#2532](http://forums.mormonletters.org/yaf_postsm2532_Reed-Banishing-the-Cross-The-Emergence-of-a-Mormon-Taboo-reviewed-by-Boyd-J-Petersen.aspx#2532) Your book looks interesting. I may have to get a copy. But I think **TokyoBayer** confuses what I was saying, or is pushing his own agenda. The lack of crosses in LDS Church Art is manifestly obvious. If you look at old engravings of the Nauvoo Temple, at the existing Kirkland temple, the Salt Lake Temple, the Tabernacles in Salt Lake City and Cedar City, the older temples and stake and ward buildings, the Church art in the Museum of Church Art and reproductions in the books of both Church Histories and the anti-Mormons, you can’t help but be struck by the absence of crosses from these works. It’s not merely that they aren’t prominent – they’re not there. If you look up images from LDS cemetaries, they are , except for a few cases, missing from there as well. And this is all well before the 1950s. The existence of cruciform jewelry doesn’t detract from this wholesale absence from church art and architecture. It’s not that there’s anything “scandalous” about this. You’ll look in vain for crosses at Friends (quaker) Meetinghouses. But crosses were pretty common among Protestant churches in general, and especially on protestant grave markers. To say that reaction against crosses have anything to do with Catholics seems odd. But I’ll have to see what your book says. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/33 "2013-03-20T23:16:49Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > Christianity wasn’t technically legal in Rome until the 300s, so some plausible deniability/ vagueness in the religious art wasn’t a bad idea for a while. “No, officer, that’s just a shepherd. And we just, well, we really like fish and wine.” It’s not surprising that early Christian artworks are adapted from various other religious (Mithraism, Roman religions, Judaism, etc). A millennium and a half later, [something quite similar was going on in Japan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan)–check out pictures of some of these underground Christian icons. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/34 "2013-03-21T02:15:18Z")
> [@Mike\_Reed](#): > > Indeed. If anyone is interested in learning more about my research, my MA thesis was expanded and revised to be published as a book. Its title is “Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo” and is available on Amazon. > > You can also read a review of the book here: [http://forums.mormonletters.org/yaf\_postsm2532\_Reed-Banishing-the-Cross-The-Emergence-of-a-Mormon-Taboo-reviewed-by-Boyd-J-Petersen.aspx#2532](http://forums.mormonletters.org/yaf_postsm2532_Reed-Banishing-the-Cross-The-Emergence-of-a-Mormon-Taboo-reviewed-by-Boyd-J-Petersen.aspx#2532) Interesting, although doing vanity searches at night must take up a lot of time. 😃 > [@CalMeacham](#): > > All interesting, but I was referring to church art. Aside from buildings being in the shapes of crosses, there doesn’t seem to be any. Putting a big prominent cross in the Salt Lake Valley would indeed be counter to this, but it didn’t happen. > > You won’t find crosses on any of the Cuch’s temples or tabernacles, including the Kikland temple. I’m not sure what you are trying to argue here. No one is contesting that crosses are not part of the Mormon faith and are not generally seen. Reed apparently has found some exceptions which you appear to doubt. Whatever. My point is not that crosses are used, which would be clearly wrong, but why they aren’t used and why did Mormonism have such a strong aversion to them, as I do not recall anything specifically taught by any of the early leaders. The very question I had can be sumarized from a quote in the linked review of Reed’s book. > [@](#): > > So the symbolic force of the cross is a major division between LDS Christians and creedal Christians. And for the average Mormon, LDS antipathy to the cross may seem doctrinal, perhaps foundational, dating back to teachings from Joseph Smith. However, as Michael Reed aptly demonstrates in his new book “Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo” this history is much more recent and quite complex. Mormons don’t use crosses. Point conceded. But why not and when and why did displaying the cross cause such a visceral reaction among its members? This question would appear to be answered by Reed’s book and is fairly recent in historical terms. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910/35 "2013-03-21T02:41:49Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > A millennium and a half later, [something quite similar was going on in Japan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan)–check out pictures of some of these underground Christian icons. A couple of years ago NHK had a year-long fictional series on Ryoma Sakamoto, a leader in movement to over through the shogun government. As a subplot he finds a geisha who is one of these kakure Christian and discovers the fact by a disguised artwork. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-earliest-example-of-jesus-on-the-cross/652910.md?page=1)