# What is the evidence for birtherism **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343 "2013-12-15T01:46:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/1 "2013-12-15T01:46:22Z")
Play devils advocate, what evidence is there for birtherism? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/2 "2013-12-15T02:28:33Z")
I think there was some interview with Obama’s step grandmother, done over the phone and with an interpreter, in which the interviewer said something like “Obama was born in Kenya, right” and she said (through the translator) “yes”, but when he asked again she said she was answering an earlier question, and that Obama was born in Hawaii. There was also a supposed Kenyan birth certificate, but it turned out to be a bad forgery. In essence, there’s absolutely zero evidence that Obama was born anywhere but Hawaii, and there’s lots of evidence that he was born in Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/3 "2013-12-15T02:43:03Z")
Well, there is [this sign](http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&biw=1152&bih=697&tbm=isch&tbnid=9001nqlvt4TdOM:&imgrefurl=http://globetribune.info/2012/06/03/opinion-romney-must-not-apologise-for-his-supporters/&docid=oaTml4Vo3HYfLM&imgurl=http://globetribune.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Obama_Kenya_Sign_copy_1_620x350.jpg&w=620&h=350&ei=fxatUueIAeHhygGYtIGQBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=196&vpy=116&dur=1563&hovh=169&hovw=299&tx=140&ty=104&page=1&tbnh=143&tbnw=260&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:84). But according to Obama himself, he was [born in Asia.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9hPXHD4WH0) ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/4 "2013-12-15T03:40:47Z")
Evidence? You mean as in facts? None. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/5 "2013-12-15T04:23:03Z")
The evidence _used to be_ that Obama hadn’t made the actual birth cetificate avalable for public scrutiny, like every other presidential candidate had (never done). But nowadays, even Donald “Relevant” Trump has had his genuine curiosity satisfied about the places that Obama wasn’t born into. So there simply isn’t any evidence that The President wasn’t necessarily not born in a country other than his rightful birthplace. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/6 "2013-12-15T04:55:05Z")
Well there was this published mistake. > **[Did Obama's Literary Agent Say He Was Born in Kenya?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/promotional-booklet/)** > > A 1991 literary promotional booklet identified Barack Obama as having been born in Kenya. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/7 "2013-12-15T05:36:30Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Well, there is [this sign](http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&biw=1152&bih=697&tbm=isch&tbnid=9001nqlvt4TdOM:&imgrefurl=http://globetribune.info/2012/06/03/opinion-romney-must-not-apologise-for-his-supporters/&docid=oaTml4Vo3HYfLM&imgurl=http://globetribune.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Obama_Kenya_Sign_copy_1_620x350.jpg&w=620&h=350&ei=fxatUueIAeHhygGYtIGQBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=196&vpy=116&dur=1563&hovh=169&hovw=299&tx=140&ty=104&page=1&tbnh=143&tbnw=260&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:84). But according to Obama himself, he was [born in Asia.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9hPXHD4WH0) I assume you’re kidding about the sign but, just in case… > **[Welcome to Kenya, Birthplace of Barack Obama](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/birth-sign/)** > > Photograph shows a 'Welcome to Kenya' sign identifying that country as the birthplace of Barack Obama? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/8 "2013-12-15T07:32:11Z")
The liberal media is surpressing all the evidence of our Kenyan usurper. It exists tho ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/9 "2013-12-15T08:01:38Z")
[ol] [li]“Barack” ain’t no Murrican name.[/li][li]Neither is “Obama”.[/li][li]His middle name is “Hussein”.[/li][li]He’s a_Negro._[/li][/ol] That’s pretty much the extent of it. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/10 "2013-12-15T08:02:43Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > The liberal media is surpressing all the evidence of our Kenyan usurper. It exists tho :eek: _They_ got to **Ambivalid** –mid-word! ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/11 "2013-12-15T08:13:16Z")
I guess the thing I don’t understand is, even if Obama had been born in Kenya, he still would have been a US citizen, so there was no reason to fake his birth certificate unless his parents had conspired from his birth to ensure that he could become president… some day. So even if there was evidence, the story doesn’t even make sense. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/12 "2013-12-15T09:04:14Z")
I’ve mentioned that I have an intelligent conspiracy-theorist friend. (I’ll call him Ben because that is not his name.) Last time I met him, his parting remarks were about a birth certificate presented on Obama’s behalf. [QUOTE=Ben, paraphrased] The pdf document showed tampering [pdf or photoshop planes? septimus disremembers] which would make no sense were the document legitimate. Google it and you’ll see what I mean. [/QUOTE] (Perhaps I’m just gulled by establishment propaganda, but I was not sufficiently intrigued to Google it. I hope a Doper will do so for me, since I’ll probably see the guy at a Christmas party and want him to know I’ve done my homework.) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/13 "2013-12-15T09:59:55Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I guess the thing I don’t understand is, even if Obama had been born in Kenya, he still would have been a US citizen, so there was no reason to fake his birth certificate unless his parents had conspired from his birth to ensure that he could become president… some day. So even if there was evidence, the story doesn’t even make sense. There was a law at the time that said something along the lines that to gain citizenship, the mother had to have lived in the U.S. at least X years. The law was intended to defeat anchor babies, IIRC. When Obama was born, his mother was less than X years old, so by the letter of the law, he wouldn’t have been a citizen had he not been born in the U.S., even though his mother was unquestionably a citizen. So it’s basically a loophole. I kind of wonder what would’ve happened had it actually been true, and Obama had gone to court or something to confirm his citizenship. [Here’s Snopes with a full explanation.](http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/14 "2013-12-15T10:20:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think there was some interview with Obama’s step grandmother, done over the phone and with an interpreter, in which the interviewer said something like “Obama was born in Kenya, right” and she said (through the translator) “yes”, but when he asked again she said she was answering an earlier question, and that Obama was born in Hawaii. There was confusion because of the translations. The grandmother thought she was being asked about her son Barack (who was born in Kenya in 1936) rather than her grandson Barack (who was born in Hawaii in 1961). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/15 "2013-12-15T10:34:57Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I guess the thing I don’t understand is, even if Obama had been born in Kenya, he still would have been a US citizen, so there was no reason to fake his birth certificate unless his parents had conspired from his birth to ensure that he could become president… some day. So even if there was evidence, the story doesn’t even make sense. The real question is why they would have bothered with a conspiracy at all. The birther theory is that for some reason a baby boy born in Kenya in 1961 was chosen to be the future President. But being born in Kenya he wouldn’t be eligible to be President when he grew up. So they (whoever they are) had to fake a birth record for him in Hawaii. Because even if you argue the records are faked, nobody is claiming they didn’t exist back in 1961. Which shows a lot of foresight - they supposedly faked all this evidence forty-eight years before they were planning on committing the crime. With all this high-level conspiring going on, you’d think somebody would have suggested the obvious alternative: put pregnant Stanley Dunham on a plane in Kenya and fly her back to America so the kid could actually be born here. That would have been a lot simpler than faking all those records. It’s the first thing you have to do with any conspiracy theory: ask yourself if it makes less sense than the mainstream version of what happened. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/16 "2013-12-15T12:09:06Z")
BTW, there is [another explanation for why Obama cannot produce a valid birth certificate.](http://postimg.org/image/j3fu2od2n/) ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/17 "2013-12-15T18:44:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The real question is why they would have bothered with a conspiracy at all. > …[snip]… > With all this high-level conspiring going on, you’d think somebody would have suggested the obvious alternative: put pregnant Stanley Dunham on a plane in Kenya and fly her back to America so the kid could actually be born here. That would have been a lot simpler than faking all those records. > … The best of the worst is that Dunham was definitively living in Hawaii at the time. The conspirists would have had to put her on a plane _to_ Kenya so that little Barry would be born there. If the long game was to get this kid elected president, why did they go out of the way so much to make him ineligible? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/18 "2013-12-15T23:38:34Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > If the long game was to get this kid elected president, why did they go out of the way so much to make him ineligible? In order to Destroy America! See, according to the little-known secret 11th Article of the [Treaty of Paris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1783)), if the United States ever elects a POTUS who is not actually eligible to be POTUS\*, then the whole country reverts to the British Crown. It’s all part of a secret Illuminati plot to [reunify the British Empire](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=710196). \*Actually, based on the wording of Article XI, it _could_ be intepreted as having a constitutionally ineligible POTUS _serve out a complete term_ as being the thing that would invalidate American Independence. So the Illuminati figured better safe than sorry, and are having Obama serve out the full maximum two terms that the 22nd Amendment allows before they drop the big bombshell on January 20, 2017, and we all revert to being Loyal Subjects of the Queen. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/19 "2013-12-16T08:41:51Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > The conspirists would have had to put her on a plane _to_ Kenya so that little Barry would be born there. If the long game was to get this kid elected president, why did they go out of the way so much to make him ineligible? Is this a homework question? Can’t you even Google for Executive Order 13489? Obama, both his parents, two of his grandparents, and his wife and children are all Wiccan Satanists. (This much isn’t in dispute; the kids read _Harry Potter_ instead of _The Bible_. :smack: :mad: ) America has always practiced Freedom of Religion and even Satanists are welcome, but Obama has repeatedly lied and said he was Christian. I don’t know how much proof you need that Obama is the Antichrist. Even his birthday gives it away; August 4 is the 216th day of the year. 216 = 6X6X6. The letters of his name (which means “I saw Satan as Lightning from Heaven” in Hebrew) add to 6+6+6. He clearly states “Serve Satan” in several of his speeches, when played backwards. I realize this doesn’t answer your specific question, but, as I suggested, you should learn to do your own homework. Here’s a hint: Google “Criminal penalties for Satanic baby sacrifice” and decide if you’d rather anoint the Antichrist in Hawaii or Kenya. (I can’t believe Americans can be so ignorant. This is the _Information Age_ “Obama Antichrist” gets 4,800,000 hits on Google/YouTube.) ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-evidence-for-birtherism/676343/20 "2013-12-16T15:07:07Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > There was a law at the time that said something along the lines that to gain citizenship, the mother had to have lived in the U.S. at least X years. The law was intended to defeat anchor babies, IIRC. When Obama was born, his mother was less than X years old, so by the letter of the law, he wouldn’t have been a citizen had he not been born in the U.S., even though his mother was unquestionably a citizen. So, the requirement (which, I think, still exists in some form) is generally that the child of one US-citizen parent and one non-US citizen parent is only a US citizen at birth if the US citizen parent has resided in the US for a certain number of years (and a certain number of years after age 16). I don’t think the idea is about anchor babies (who are believed to have citizenship through the 14th amendment), so much as “blood” citizenship from persons far removed from the country. So imagine Little Barack moves to Indonesia and stays there, marries a local woman, and has a child there: that child does not become an automatic US citizen. Another fun fact is that because Barack Sr. was already married, his marriage to Ann Dunham was probably illegal. Curiously, if Barack Jr. was born a bastard child, he would have gotten citizenship through his mother notwithstanding the residency issue. But, because we treat children from void marriages as legitimate, they had the residency problem. As to the OP: none of that matters because Barack Jr. was born in Hawaii. There’s really no evidence that that is not true and no reason why it wouldn’t be. I guess I can understand the motivation to fabricate citizenship (it’s better to be a US citizen than a British subject), but the easier thing to do would have been to put Dunham on a plane to the US (and given that she wasn’t living in Kenya, it makes no sense why she should be there). But, we’ve only had two presidents whose fathers were not US citizens (I mean, since that became expected) and both have been subject to rumors about the falsification of their place of birth and their eligibility. I think we just have a strong xenophobic streak in this country.