# What is the greatest human cruelty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2006, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658 "2006-02-09T05:29:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/21 "2006-02-09T11:26:29Z")
**drmark2000** , there are buddhist teachings that agree with you. I believe the philospher Schopenhauer said something along the same lines. But then, he wasn’t a happy camper in the first place, and he hated his mom, who hadn’t particularly done anything to deserve his wrath, so his teachings might just be a rationalization of his emotional views. Let me put it this way; sure, you didn’t ask to be born. But you can always choose to live your live the way you want it, or, if you see no alternative, end your life. Most people are glad to be alive, not just biologcally clinging to life. So ethically speaking, their parents didn’t commit a cruelty towards them. Aren’t you glad to be alive? Would you rather have not lived? Personaly, I think the greatest cruelty mankind inflicts on other beings is industrial farming. Just to have meat and eggs at ridiculously low prices, we violate everything we know about how farm animals feel happiest. Chickens love to scrurry about in open air, with plenty of space, and have a close knit bond with a few other chickens and a cock. Farmers and consumer know that. Yet, they keep that chick confined to a cage the size of a sheet of A4 paper, all its life, surrounded by other stressed out chickens pecking eacht other to death because they can’t get away from each other. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/22 "2006-02-09T11:54:27Z")
> [@trublmakr](#): > > Hmmm, how ironic. I would say it’s the death of a child. An actual child that has lived on the earth for a period of time, not abortion. With the loss of potential and the extreme agony that the family must go through, especially if it’s sudden, it strikes me as being the worst thing that could happen. I agree 100% with this. Sure, it could be (and clearly _is_) argued that ‘inflicting a life’ upon someone could be considered cruel, but this could also be (and _is_) described as the greatest gift. The possibility for such a spectrum of opinion, for me, disqualifies it from being the archetypal cruel act. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/23 "2006-02-09T12:26:20Z")
> [@JohnnyEnigma](#): > > Indifference is the greatest human cruelty; whether it is toward your fellow man or life in general. There is nothing more dehumanizing than viewing another person as insignificant. Would you rather I was indifferent towards you or kicked you in the nuts? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/24 "2006-02-09T12:33:13Z")
It’s the Joke threads in Cafe AAAAaaaaaaRRRrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhh! PLease God make it stop! make it stop… sobbing ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/25 "2006-02-09T13:04:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Would you rather I was indifferent towards you or kicked you in the nuts? Good call; it was one of those grandiose ‘deep’ statements that, at the very core, is pure bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/26 "2006-02-09T13:17:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Would you rather I was indifferent towards you or kicked you in the nuts? I’d rather feel the kick in the nuts! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/27 "2006-02-09T13:18:40Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Oh, I’d say flaying someone alive, dipping them in salt, raping them, then eating them alive is just a _little_ worse. and afterward, ignoring them woud be the corker. ---
**Author:** ![Phnord\_Prephect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/df705f/32.png) [@Phnord\_Prephect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phnord_Prephect)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/28 "2006-02-09T13:26:00Z")
Although ending a life is sometimes considered cruel, there are cases in which it’s a kindness. Although beginning a life is sometimes considered kind, there are cases in which it’s a cruelty. Many will argue that childhood is the best part of life. It is only during adulthoood that life begins to truly become suffering. Therefore, the REAL cruelty is… …letting a child become an adult. In the increasingly non-PC words of the great WC Fields, and I paraphrase: Children should be placed in a barrel at birth and fed through the bunghole (stop giggling and find a dictionary); at age 18 the decision should be made whether to let them out or seal the hole. And no, I in no way advocate the killing of children. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/29 "2006-02-09T14:39:50Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > Wow, you must be a hit at parties. My question was not “Am I a hit at parties? (Oh, please, please, please, say ‘Yes.’)” One wouldn’t probably ask such a question at a party. SDMB is NOT a party. We don’t have to maintain normal social propriety. We can speak freely and find out what others think. So, what do you THINK? ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/30 "2006-02-09T14:53:31Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Only if you subscribe to the notion that life is nothing buy suffering. > > Marc Despite the misspelling, which has already been lamely pointed out, let’s take a brief look at life. It is excrutiatingly painful to enter into, for both mother and child, and is generally quite painful to leave (and the latter generally takes a lot longer than birth). What happens in between, well, one needs but to scan the front page of any major newspaper to be adequately informed of the kinds of things humans inflict upon each other to ensure that life is miserable for everyone. So, why bring another sentient being into this rottenness? ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/31 "2006-02-09T14:57:09Z")
I would have figured chattel slavery to be the topper here, if only because by its nature, it incorporates many of the other issues (infanticide, rape, assault, murder). That said, I’d like to hear the OP’s justification for his position, whatever that might be. I’m not a big fan of threads where the OP only joins in the snark at responses, or tries to pull some sort of neo-platonic interrogation. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/32 "2006-02-09T15:01:16Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Interestingly, libertarian philosophy agrees with you. Birth is a coercion against the child, and is the reason that parents are bound parties to a unary contract in which the child is a non-consenting party. Okay. I am not demanding, but would appreciate, a cite on this. On the face of it, the idea makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/33 "2006-02-09T15:14:48Z")
> [@drmark](#): > > one needs but to scan the front page of any major newspaper to be adequately informed of the kinds of things humans inflict upon each other to ensure that life is miserable for everyone. Well, they seem to have missed me out, because I’m overwhelmingly _happy_ that I was born in to this incredible existence. But my story isn’t newsworthy, so please don’t tell the nasty inflictors about me. > [@](#): > > So, why bring another sentient being into this rottenness? Because they might make me happier still, and I can hopefully make them happy too. Not that I’m making any promises, but do you need some cheering up yourself? ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/34 "2006-02-09T15:36:30Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > **drmark2000** , there are buddhist teachings that agree with you. Again, I do not demand, but would appreciate, a cite on this. > [@Maastricht](#): > > I believe the philospher Schopenhauer said something along the same lines. But then, he wasn’t a happy camper in the first place, and he hated his mom, who hadn’t particularly done anything to deserve his wrath, so his teachings might just be a rationalization of his emotional views. I think it was Schopenauer who also described the human animal as a little being of rationality riding upon a great being of instinct. The little being can make its reasoned suggestions, but the great being always ends up doing whatever it wants to. > [@Maastricht](#): > > Let me put it this way; sure, you didn’t ask to be born. But you can always choose to live your live the way you want it, or, if you see no alternative, end your life. One cannot “always choose to live your life the way you want it.” In fact, that is rarely the case. This is a conceit of the American middle class, and a load of utter bullshit. And what about suicide? For about the last 5 years, suicides have exceeded homicides by around 50%, at least in the United States. We kill ourselves at a 50% higher rate than we kill each other! Worldwide, suicide accounts for more deaths every year than all of the homicides (including wars) and deaths by disease combined! Is this not a comment on something? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/35 "2006-02-09T15:55:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > OK, I can sort of see this, but in your opinion, does that equate to “The greatest human cruelty”? In some metaphysical sense, I suppose. But I do get the gist of what I think you’re saying. It seems less cruel to produce a child than, say, to murder one. And yet, death is a fate that awaits us all, and occasions when death is not seen as cruel seem rare to me. It is cruel when they’re taken suddenly, and cruel when they linger and suffer. It also might seem crueler in some environments than in others. Perhaps, strictly speaking, it is more cruel to produce a child in South Central than in the Hamptons. Even so, wealthy and privileged people are not immune to the sufferings of life, despite that by our standards they might not suffer what we consider to be enough. But they will die, and they may die in a cruel way. Therefore, birth is a guarantee of suffering and death. Our grandchild died of brain cancer when he was barely a year old. Almost everyone would call that a cruel death. But there was only one way to ensure that he never would suffer that or any other cruelty. So, it’s a bit deeper question than it seems at first blush. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/36 "2006-02-09T15:57:55Z")
> [@drmark](#): > > Is this not a comment on something? Averaging the world average suicide rate for [males](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_sui_rat_mal) and [females](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_sui_rat_fem) gives 13 per 100,000 people. Add the average [homicide](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_percap) rate to this and you still only get 23 people per 100,000 who are deliberately killed by themselves or others. What comment do you make about the other 99, 977? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/37 "2006-02-09T15:58:16Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > Okay. I am not demanding, but would appreciate, a cite on this. > > On the face of it, the idea makes sense to me. I really can’t recall where I first saw the idea, but I recall that when I did, it made perfect logical sense. You need only define coercion as initial force or deception, freedom as the absence of coercion, and consent as freedom to use one’s mind — it is then easy to develop axioms and draw inferences that lead inexorably to the conclusion that birth is a coercion. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/38 "2006-02-09T15:59:18Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I would have figured chattel slavery to be the topper here, if only because by its nature, it incorporates many of the other issues (infanticide, rape, assault, murder). Okay, but in order to have chattel slavery among humans, you have to have humans in the first place > [@Stonebow](#): > > That said, I’d like to hear the OP’s justification for his position, whatever that might be. I’m not a big fan of threads where the OP only joins in the snark at responses, or tries to pull some sort of neo-platonic interrogation. Then don’t be a “big fan”! I’m not looking for fandom, I’m looking for useful information. Provide that, if you can. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/39 "2006-02-09T16:06:38Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > …you still only get 23 people per 100,000 who are deliberately killed by themselves or others. What comment do you make about the other 99, 977? The other 99,977 die in whatever rotten, painful ways that they do, a fate inflicted upon them by those that brought them into life in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658/40 "2006-02-09T16:12:45Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > The other 99,977 die in whatever rotten, painful ways that they do, a fate inflicted upon them by those that brought them into life in the first place. Heh, I’d love to see you present children’s television. Seriously though, when I say I am honestly, genuinely _happy_ I was born, rather than not, do you _believe_ me? What if [others](http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/johs) say the same? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-greatest-human-cruelty/343658.md?page=3)