# What is the Jewish Messiah Supposed to Do Exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771 "2018-02-13T17:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/41 "2018-02-15T15:16:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There you run into definitional problems … the term originally referred to no more than the ritual attending the induction of a king or high priest, by anointing with oil (it is still part of the royal rituals). So every king or high priest is, in a highly technical sense, an “anointed one”. > > See for example 1 Samuel 10:1 > > However, from very early times, it took on a more significant meaning - chosen by God in a more general sense. However, as the ritual of anointing was considered a sign of being “chosen by God”, it is really difficult to disentangle the two. > > David was “anointed” as king, but the Bible uses the term in both senses when referring to him: > > Over time, the “anointed by God” took on a less literal meaning (i.e., the ritual of making a king or high priest, which demonstrated “God’s choice” of monarch or priest), and came to mean a chosen savior. > > It is, however, very difficult to disentangle these two meanings, as you can see from the language … > > So to answer the question: many in the Bible are identified as “anointed” - basically every high priest or Jewish king - but not all of these would be considered “saviours” as well. In some cases the “anointing” merely designated status, in others it had a deeper meaning - as can be seen when discussing David. Many of the Jewish kings were bad guys, but were nonetheless “anointed”: Saul was “anointed” but God withdrew his favour from him and his dynasty, in preference to David and his line … Thank you very much for your response! I find the intersection of words, culture, and their coevolution fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![PapaJoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@PapaJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PapaJoe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/42 "2018-02-15T16:01:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There is no “Jewish community” response. Some Jews regard him as an itinerant teacher with some good ideas in the tradition of Hillel. Some Jews regard him as an itinerant teacher with some good ideas in the tradition of Hillel, who also had some less good ideas and whose followers went nuts. Some Jews regard him as an itinerant preacher of no particular significance whose followers branched out to become the primary persecutors of Jews. > > There is no single view. Jesus plays no significant role, (or no role at all, depending on the source), in Jewish thought. The question is like asking the Christian community’s perspective on Buddha. It would depend on which Christian one asked, from the favorable writings of Thomas Merton to the foaming mouth hatred of Franklin Graham to the “man on the street” who could not identify a single thought expressed by Buddha. While I do appreciate this view, I was not specifically referring to “Jesus”, but rather the tradition of the counterpart to Mashiach ben David. The “man of peace” who would precede the “man of war”. I know Christians understand this to be “Jesus”. I was more interested in the Jewish understanding of their own Messianic traditions, not those of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/43 "2018-02-15T16:06:54Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Thank you very much for your response! I find the intersection of words, culture, and their coevolution fascinating. Thanks! I find this stuff fascinating as well. It is worth noting that the two meanings of “anointed one” continue right down to the present day - as a self-conscious imitation of the Biblical ritual. Here’s a video of Queen Elizabeth II of England being “anointed” in 1953: The ritual: > [@](#): > > The Queen rising from her devotions, having been disrobed of her crimson robe by the Lord Great Chamberlain, assisted by the Mistress of the Robes, and being uncovered, shall go before the Altar. > The Queen sits in King Edward’s Chair, wherein she was anointed. Four Knights of the Garter hold over her a cloth of gold: the Dean of Westminster, taking the Ampulla and Spoon from off the Altar, hold them ready, pouring some holy Oil into the Spoon, and with it the Archbishop anointed the Queen in the form of a cross: > On the palms of both the hands, saying, > Be thy Hands anointed with holy Oil. > On the breast, saying, > Be thy Breast anointed with holy Oil. > On the crown of the head, saying, > **Be thy Head anointed with holy Oil: > as kings, priests, and prophets were anointed: > And as Solomon was anointed king > by Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet, > so be thou anointed, blessed, and consecrated Queen** > over the Peoples, whom the Lord thy God > hath given thee to rule and govern, > In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. > Then the Dean of Westminster lay the Ampulla and Spoon upon the Altar; and the Queen kneeling down at the faldstool, the Archbishop said this Blessing over her: > Our Lord Jesus Christ, > the Son of God, > who by his Father was anointed with the Oil of gladness > above his fellows, > by his holy Anointing pour down upon your Head and Heart > the blessing of the Holy Ghost, > and prosper the works of your Hands: > that by the assistance of his heavenly grace > you may govern and preserve > the Peoples committed to your charge > in wealth, peace, and godliness; > and after a long and glorious course > of ruling a temporal kingdom > wisely, justly, and religiously, > you may at last be made partaker of an eternal kingdom, > through the same Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. [Emphasis added] Thus, Queen Elizabeth II is, in that very ancient sense, a “messiah” in that she’s been “anointed” … though no one, I think, considers her a “savior”! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/44 "2018-02-15T16:31:11Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > The Messiah is a more recent Jewish creation. Primarily from around the end of the Second Temple Period and coincidental (or not so coincidental) to when Jesus of Nazareth was preaching. We see very little written evidence prior to the destruction of the Second Temple mentioning a Messiah, but we do know that there were various claimants during the Roman domination. … The most famous of those claimed to be the Messiah (other than Jesus) during that Roman period was Simon Bar Kokhba. The Bar Kokhba Revolt in 132 to 136 CE had Bar Kokhba leading many who believed him to be the Messiah. 580,000 Jews died as a result and many more were dispersed as slaves and refugees. The conceptualization of the Messiah changed a bit after that. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/45 "2018-02-15T17:59:07Z")
Regarding anointment, was the idea that oil was such a precious commodity (see, for example, the Hanukah miracle) that someone would have to be really special to waste a flask of oil by pouring it on his head? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/46 "2018-02-15T18:38:00Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > someone would have to be really special to waste a flask of oil by pouring it on his head? Surely not a very large flask. A little dab will do ya. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/47 "2018-02-15T18:50:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Surely not a very large flask. > A little dab will do ya. That was actually going to be my next question: What amount of oil was used-a couple of drops, a little drizzle, or a decent pour? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/48 "2018-02-15T18:59:32Z")
The oil itself isn’t precious like saffron. Olives (e.g.) grow on trees… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/49 "2018-02-15T19:04:21Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Regarding anointment, was the idea that oil was such a precious commodity (see, for example, the Hanukah miracle) that someone would have to be really special to waste a flask of oil by pouring it on his head? No - I think it was supposed to be perfumed. Oddly enough, the Bible gives the exact recipe for making the stuff (allegedly handed down by God himself!). See Exodus 30:22-25: > [@](#): > > 22 Moreover the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying: > 23 'Take thou also unto thee the chief spices, of flowing myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty, and of sweet calamus two hundred and fifty, > כ24 and of cassia five hundred, after the shekel of the sanctuary, and of olive oil a hin. > 25 And thou shalt make it a holy anointing oil, a perfume compounded after the art of the perfumer; it shall be a holy anointing oil. It’s described as “perfume”. So it is oily in consistency, but not like petroleum or a lamp-oil - it’s basically a perfume with an olive oil base. (We don’t know how much was used in an “anointing” in ancient times, but presumably it was used more like a modern cosmetic use of perfume, and not poured over the head in a bucket … ) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/50 "2018-02-15T19:07:15Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > The oil itself isn’t precious like saffron. Olives (e.g.) grow on trees… The recipe provided in Exodus does however contain ingredients that were pricey in the ancient world - such as Myrrh. Which also figures in the New Testament as one of the gifts of the Magi. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/51 "2018-02-15T19:07:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No - I think it was supposed to be perfumed. > > Oddly enough, the Bible gives the exact recipe for making the stuff (allegedly handed down by God himself!). See Exodus 30:22-25: I wouldn’t call it an exact recipe because we don’t know what the price per ounce was for any of those, do we? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/52 "2018-02-15T19:12:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I wouldn’t call it an exact recipe because we don’t know what the price per ounce was for any of those, do we? “Shekel” is a weight, not a price in this case. > **[Biblical and Talmudic units of measurement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_and_Talmudic_units_of_measurement#Weight_and_coins)** > > Biblical and Talmudic units of measurement were used primarily by ancient Israelites and appear frequently within the Hebrew Bible as well as in later rabbinic writings, such as the Mishnah and Talmud. These units of measurement continue to be used in functions regulating Jewish contemporary life. The specificity of some of the units used and which are encompassed under these systems of measurement (whether in linear distance, weight or volume of capacity) have given rise, in some instances, to d... 1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces). Way we get “shekel” to mean “price” is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a “shekel” was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/53 "2018-02-15T19:20:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Shekel” is a weight, not a price in this case. > > [Biblical and Talmudic units of measurement - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_and_Talmudic_units_of_measurement#Weight_and_coins) > > 1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces). > > Way we get “shekel” to mean “price” is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a “shekel” was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin. [Johnny Carson]I did not know that![JC] Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/54 "2018-02-15T19:43:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Johnny Carson]I did not know that![JC] Thanks. It’s an interesting area. Apparently, standardized units of value based on particular standard weights of precious metals was the stage right before the creation of government-issued coinage. As you can imagine, the temptation to cheat must have been great … coins are useful at least in part because they are harder to cheat with than (say) a weighed bag of irregular bits of (alleged) silver. In the OT, the writers sometimes specify prices as “shekels of silver”, and sometimes just “shekels”. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/55 "2018-02-16T00:26:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Shekel” is a weight, not a price in this case. > > [Biblical and Talmudic units of measurement - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_and_Talmudic_units_of_measurement#Weight_and_coins) > > 1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces). > > Way we get “shekel” to mean “price” is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a “shekel” was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin. Yes. The pound, the lira, the mark and no doubt many other currency units are named from measures of weight. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/56 "2018-02-16T14:28:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … coins are useful at least in part because they are harder to cheat with than (say) a weighed bag of irregular bits of (alleged) silver. … Unless of course you have a “Eureka!” moment. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/57 "2018-02-16T14:52:42Z")
I love the SDMB–where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/58 "2018-02-16T15:03:33Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I love the SDMB–where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion? He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy. And the obligatory Monty Python reference. ---
**Author:** ![Amendt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Amendt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amendt)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/59 "2018-02-17T01:36:14Z")
Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion. I only have one thing to add. My old Rabbi used used to say, “When we beat our swords into pruning hooks…and lions lay with lambs…THEN, the Messiah will have come. THEN it will be a Messianic Age”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/60 "2018-02-17T02:45:49Z")
> [@Amendt](#): > > Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion. I only have one thing to add. My old Rabbi used used to say, “When we beat our swords into pruning hooks…and lions lay with lambs…THEN, the Messiah will have come. THEN it will be a Messianic Age”. And of course the sage Woody Allen added the commentary: “… and the lion will lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won’t get much sleep …” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771.md?page=4)