# What is the Jewish Messiah Supposed to Do Exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771 "2018-02-13T17:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/61 "2018-02-17T15:17:14Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I love the SDMB–where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion? There are tons of threads like this. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/62 "2018-02-18T11:56:40Z")
Somehow this never occurred to me to ask until now, but when did the belief that “the Messiah will rebuild the Temple” come about? If this predates the construction (or at least the destruction) of the Second Temple, then what did people think it meant during Second Temple times? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/63 "2018-02-18T13:14:57Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Somehow this never occurred to me to ask until now, but when did the belief that “the Messiah will rebuild the Temple” come about? If this predates the construction (or at least the destruction) of the Second Temple, then what did people think it meant during Second Temple times? Likely around the time of the exile to Babylon (book of Jeremiah and Zechariah). The Messiah would have mirrored Moses’ role in bringing Jews back from captivity in a foreign land and renewing the religion. It does mean that either there was a rebuilding of the Temple without messiah, there was a messiah around 500BC or that throughout the life of the Second Temple, the Hebrews expected their current Temple to be destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/64 "2018-02-19T17:22:40Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Likely around the time of the exile to Babylon (book of Jeremiah and Zechariah). The Messiah would have mirrored Moses’ role in bringing Jews back from captivity in a foreign land and renewing the religion. > > It does mean that either there was a rebuilding of the Temple without messiah, there was a messiah around 500BC or that throughout the life of the Second Temple, the Hebrews expected their current Temple to be destroyed. There was a messiah. The messiah of the time was the man responsible for ending the Babylonian Captivity and returning the Jews from exile - and (allegedly) for funding the rebuilding of the Temple: namely, Cyrus the Persian. He’s specifically identified as a messiah in Isaiah 45:1-3: > [@](#): > > Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whom he has taken by his right hand to subdue nations before him and strip the loins of kings, to force gateways before him that their gates be closed no more: I will go before you levelling the heights. I will shatter the bronze gateways, smash the iron bars. I will give you the hidden treasures, the secret hoards, that you may know that I am the Lord. This flattering description came because of the alleged “decree of Cyrus”, which allowed the return of the Jews and the rebuilding of the Temple (even, allegedly, funding it). The decree of Cyrus (whatever it actually stated) may be no more than general Persian imperial policy, of course - which the redactors of the OT took to mean quite a bit more. According to Josephus, the Decree stated as follows: > [@](#): > > I have given leave to as many of the Jews that dwell in my country as please to return to their own country, and to rebuild their city, and to build the temple of God at Jerusalem on the same place where it was before. I have also sent my treasurer Mithridates, and Zorobabel, the governor of the Jews, that they may lay the foundations of the temple, and may build it sixty cubits high, and of the same latitude, making three edifices of polished stones, and one of the wood of the country, and the same order extends to the altar whereon they offer sacrifices to God. I require also that the expenses for these things may be given out of my revenues. Moreover, I have also sent the vessels which king Nebuchadnezzar pillaged out of the temple, and have given them to Mithridates the treasurer, and to Zorobabel the governor of the Jews, that they may have them carried to Jerusalem, and may restore them to the temple of God. Now their number is as follows: Fifty chargers of gold, and five hundred of silver; forty Thericlean cups of gold, and five hundred of silver; fifty basons of gold, and five hundred of silver; thirty vessels for pouring [the drink-offerings], and three hundred of silver; thirty vials of gold, and two thousand four hundred of silver; with a thousand other large vessels. (3) I permit them to have the same honor which they were used to have from their forefathers, as also for their small cattle, and for wine and oil, two hundred and five thousand and five hundred drachme; and for wheat flour, twenty thousand and five hundred artabae; and I give order that these expenses shall be given them out of the tributes due from Samaria. The priests shall also offer these sacrifices according to the laws of Moses in Jerusalem; and when they offer them, they shall pray to God for the preservation of the king and of his family, that the kingdom of Persia may continue. But my will is, that those who disobey these injunctions, and make them void, shall be hung upon a cross, and their substance brought into the king’s treasury. > **[Cyrus the Great in the Bible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Bible)** > > Cyrus the Great was the founder of the Achaemenid Empire and king of Persia from 559 to 530 BC. He is venerated in the Tanakh as Cyrus the Messiah for conquering Babylon and liberating the Jews from captivity. > According to the Bible, Cyrus the Great, king of the Achaemenid Empire, was the monarch who ended the Babylonian captivity. In the first year of his reign he was prompted by God to decree that the Temple in Jerusalem should be rebuilt and that Jews who wished to could return to their home... ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/65 "2018-04-12T17:37:40Z")
But what’s the deal with the red cow? Were there historically red cows used for rituals or is it like saying they’ll need a flying pig? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/66 "2018-04-12T21:13:33Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > But what’s the deal with the red cow? Were there historically red cows used for rituals or is it like saying they’ll need a flying pig? In Judaism, touching a dead body, or walking over a grave, or being in a room that has a dead body in it, makes you ritually impure. To purify people who have been made impure, a priest is supposed to ritually sacrifice a red cow, burn it to ashes, and thenow mix the ashes with water, and being sprinkled with that water purifies you. That’s from the book of Numbers, in the bible. The problem is, the Midrash lays out really strict requirements as to what makes a red heifer valid for the ceremony, so that’s hard to meet. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/67 "2018-04-12T23:14:02Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In Judaism, touching a dead body, or walking over a grave, or being in a room that has a dead body in it, makes you ritually impure. To purify people who have been made impure, a priest is supposed to ritually sacrifice a red cow, burn it to ashes, and thenow mix the ashes with water, and being sprinkled with that water purifies you. That’s from the book of Numbers, in the bible. > > The problem is, the Midrash lays out really strict requirements as to what makes a red heifer valid for the ceremony, so that’s hard to meet. So all Jews require a red cow to be ritually pure, not just the Messiah? Or is this one of the things that only applies once the temple is rebuilt? Also does this mean red cows used to be readily available but are now extinct? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/68 "2018-04-13T11:54:51Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > So all Jews require a red cow to be ritually pure, not just the Messiah? > > Or is this one of the things that only applies once the temple is rebuilt? > > Also does this mean red cows used to be readily available but are now extinct? It’s everybody. It’s nothing to do with the messiah. In Judaism, there’s a bunch of stuff that makes people ritually unclean or impure, and a lot of it has to do with fluids and secretions. If you menstruate, if you ejaculate, you’re ritually unclean. Most of the time, you can get rid of ritual impurity by bathing, pretty much. In Judaism, there’s a ritual bath, called a mikvah. If you bathe in it, you become clean again. However, the impurity that comes from contacting death is special. It can’t be gotten rid of by a mikvah. It can only be gotten rid of through the sacrifice of the red heifer and the water of purification. So, you may ask, why is any of this important? The answer is, right now it’s not very important (although, even now, in Judaism, priests aren’t supposed to go to funerals. Some don’t even go to museums because a lot of museums have bones in them.) However, if and when the temple is rebuilt, this will be important, because somebody who is ritually impure can’t enter the temple. So the people who are trying to breed a red heifer are doing so because they want the Temple rebuilt and the cow is part of that. And, the answer about the question of rarely is that a red heifer that meets the qualifications is rare and always has been. Supposedly, according to the Talmud, there have only been nine red heifers who have ever been sacrificed. Also, a little sidenote, in case you didn’t know. In Judaism, unlike, for instance, Christianity, priesthood is hereditary. Priests are descended from Moses’s brother Aaron, and it’s not their job to provide moral guidence, but instead to conduct rituals in the Temple, especially ritual sacrifices. Priests haven’t had a lot to do since the Temple was last destroyed by the Romans. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/69 "2018-04-13T15:26:09Z")
Are/were sacrifices allowed outside the Temple? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/70 "2018-04-13T15:56:20Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Are/were sacrifices allowed outside the Temple? No. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/71 "2018-04-13T15:58:12Z")
So, are priests and rabbis two completely different things? If so, are there currently any priests? ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/72 "2018-04-13T17:44:27Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Somehow this never occurred to me to ask until now, but when did the belief that “the Messiah will rebuild the Temple” come about? If this predates the construction (or at least the destruction) of the Second Temple, then what did people think it meant during Second Temple times? During Second Temple times the Messiah was supposed to renovate: redo the bathrooms, put in central heat, add a kitchen island with a breakfast bar. That sort of thing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/73 "2018-04-13T19:55:13Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So, are priests and rabbis two completely different things? If so, are there currently any priests? Rabbi comes from the Hebrew word for teacher. They’ve studied Jewish law, have attended either theological seminaries or yeshivas, and have been ordained. They teach, lead congregations, provide pastoral care, and preach sermons, and organize and run worship services. Priests, or, in Hebrew, kohanim, are descendants in the male line of Moses’s brother Aaron. Back when the temple was still around, they were the ones who sacrificed animals. They had certain special rights back then, mostly, the right to eat sacrificed animals and get a part of the fruit harvest. They also had certain restrictions, like not being able to marry a divorcee or a convert. There are still Jewish kohanim around today…in fact, one of them, Michael Cohen, has been much I’m the news of late. But, without the temple and sacrifices, most of their religious role has become obsolete. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/74 "2018-04-13T21:03:49Z")
I’m glad this thread got bumped - I missed seeing it its first time at the top of the GD thread list because I was in the hospital for a few weeks with a nasty infection (thank G-d, I’m feeling much better now), but I could certainly add to this subject. For now, I’ll just quickly amend Captain Amazing’s answer - Kohanim’s sacrificial role is currently obsolete, but the non-sacrificial aspects of their Biblically-defined roles and privileges still apply. They still bless the congregation with the Priestly Blessing (see Numbers 6:22-27), they still collect the modern-day equivalent of 5 silver shekalim for firstborn males who are not Kohanim or Levites, they still must avoid contact with dead bodies, except for those of close relatives, and there are several other aspects which still apply in modern times. There is also a Biblical mandate to honor Kohanim, which today manifests itself in a Kohen being the first man to be called to the Torah on days the Torah is read in public, and being offered to lead the Blessing after Meals. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/75 "2018-04-13T23:10:57Z")
The problem with phone posting is that you tend to be overly concise, and that’s what happened to me. Of course, it’s true that kohanim still bless the congregation and still are paid for the redemption of the first born. In the interest of completeness, I should have said that, and thanks to Chaim for pointing it out. Also, I’m glad the infection cleared up and you’re feeling better. Make sure you take care of yourself. I had an infection myself in October, and even after it was gone, it took months for my body to get back to normal, so don’t overexert. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/76 "2018-04-14T21:17:31Z")
Let’s see if I can get more basic: In my (Catholic school) religious instruction, I was given to understand that when Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a promise of eventual redemption was given by God; and that one of the elements of that promise was an explicit assertion that God would be sending His own son to carry out the redemption. So, for any Christian Bible scholars, could you please point me to the verse where the assertion is explicitly made (if one exists; I’m not prepared to accept that Gen 3:15 meets the standard of explicitness I’m asking about)? To any Jewish students of Scripture, I ask: does Jewish Biblical tradition include an interpretation that any such assertion exists in the texts? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/77 "2018-04-14T21:26:31Z")
Put more broadly, does Judaism include any expectation that a Redeemer will come who will, once and for all, reverse/negate the consequences of the Fall? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/78 "2018-04-16T15:28:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Rabbi comes from the Hebrew word for teacher. They’ve studied Jewish law, have attended either theological seminaries or yeshivas, and have been ordained. They teach, lead congregations, provide pastoral care, and preach sermons, and organize and run worship services. > > Priests, or, in Hebrew, kohanim, are descendants in the male line of Moses’s brother Aaron. Back when the temple was still around, they were the ones who sacrificed animals. They had certain special rights back then, mostly, the right to eat sacrificed animals and get a part of the fruit harvest. They also had certain restrictions, like not being able to marry a divorcee or a convert. > > There are still Jewish kohanim around today…in fact, one of them, Michael Cohen, has been much I’m the news of late. But, without the temple and sacrifices, most of their religious role has become obsolete. > [@cmkeller](#): > > I’m glad this thread got bumped - I missed seeing it its first time at the top of the GD thread list because I was in the hospital for a few weeks with a nasty infection (thank G-d, I’m feeling much better now), but I could certainly add to this subject. > > For now, I’ll just quickly amend Captain Amazing’s answer - Kohanim’s sacrificial role is currently obsolete, but the non-sacrificial aspects of their Biblically-defined roles and privileges still apply. They still bless the congregation with the Priestly Blessing (see Numbers 6:22-27), they still collect the modern-day equivalent of 5 silver shekalim for firstborn males who are not Kohanim or Levites, they still must avoid contact with dead bodies, except for those of close relatives, and there are several other aspects which still apply in modern times. There is also a Biblical mandate to honor Kohanim, which today manifests itself in a Kohen being the first man to be called to the Torah on days the Torah is read in public, and being offered to lead the Blessing after Meals. Thank you; I knew nothing about the kohanim. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/79 "2018-04-16T16:01:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The problem with phone posting is that you tend to be overly concise, and that’s what happened to me. Of course, it’s true that kohanim still bless the congregation and still are paid for the redemption of the first born. In the interest of completeness, I should have said that, and thanks to Chaim for pointing it out. > > Also, I’m glad the infection cleared up and you’re feeling better. Make sure you take care of yourself. I had an infection myself in October, and even after it was gone, it took months for my body to get back to normal, so don’t overexert. Interesting cultural transmission moment: the “Vulcan salute” Spock gives in _Star Trek_ is modeled on the ritual blessing of the congregation that the kohanim give! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771/80 "2018-04-16T17:38:26Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Put more broadly, does Judaism include any expectation that a Redeemer will come who will, once and for all, reverse/negate the consequences of the Fall? The concept of the “fall” isn’t really part of Judaism. Oh sure, we have the story of Adam and Eve, but that’s more of a “just so” story than an actual moral parable: it explains why we grow old and die, why we wear clothing, why we have to work for a living, why childbirth sucks, why snakes don’t have legs\* and so on. There’s no redemption to be had; what’s done is done. Maybe, in the End of Days, we will no longer have to suffer from death. I don’t know. All that Messianic stuff was never that important to me as a Jew. We certainly won’t be able to unlearn what we learned from the Tree of Knowledge, nor would we want to. Original Sin is a Christian invention. (The whole Serpent=Satan is also a Christian interpretation. For Jews, sometimes a talking snake is just a talking snake) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-jewish-messiah-supposed-to-do-exactly/808771.md?page=5)