# What is the K as in Concerto No.5 in A major K 219?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Tags:** music
**Created:** [May 13, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348 "2022-05-13T02:21:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/1 "2022-05-13T02:21:14Z")
I have seen classical music listed in programs, sometimes with a K as in the thread title, and sometimes with an Op. as in Concerto No. 3 in B minor Op. 61. I know the Op stands for opus, but what does the K stand for? And what do they really mean? Are there 218 other concertos in A major? Is a K just another name for an Op.?
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/2 "2022-05-13T02:23:14Z")
Köchel catalogue numbers.
[https://allaboutmozart.com/mozart-kochel-catalogue-works-compositions-koechel/](https://allaboutmozart.com/mozart-kochel-catalogue-works-compositions-koechel/)
(post edited to avoid having identical Wikipedia links in 3 successive posts).
Köchel did an important job but had a really bad hairstyle.
> **[Ludwig Ritter von Köchel Issues the Köchel-Verzeichnis of Mozart's Works : ...](https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=3048)**
>
> Ludwig Ritter von Köchel Issues the Köchel-Verzeichnis of Mozart's Works
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/3 "2022-05-13T02:24:05Z")
I’ve typically seen “K.” used in reference to Mozart’s works; it stands for “Kochel catalogue,” the work of Ludwig von Kochel, who created a chronological catalog of Mozart’s compositions.
(Post similarly edited. 🙂 )
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/4 "2022-05-13T02:25:05Z")
It applies specifically to Mozart’s music. Here’s the wiki article on it.
> **[Köchel catalogue](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6chel_catalogue)**
>
> Pages for logged out editors learn more
>
> The Köchel catalogue (German: Köchel-Verzeichnis) is a chronological catalogue of compositions by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, originally created by Ludwig Ritter von Köchel, in which the entries are abbreviated K., or KV. The numbers of the Köchel catalogue reflect the continuing establishment of a complete chronology of Mozart's works, and provide a shorthand reference to the compositions.
> According to Köchel's counting, Requiem in D minor is the 6...
The pieces are numbered in the order they are presumed to have been composed. K1 is Mozart’s first composition. K 626 is his last piece, the famous requiem that he didn’t complete before his death.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/5 "2022-05-13T02:27:59Z")
And, just to answer the OP’s question more directly: K. 219 is the 219th work of Mozart’s, in the Kochel catalog.
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### Author:  [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/6 "2022-05-13T02:29:05Z")
I think it means the music is kosher.
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/7 "2022-05-13T02:43:06Z")
A lot of baroque era and some classical era composers have similar styles of numbering their compositions. Antonio Vivaldi’s works have RV numbers, but are organized based on type and key rather than order of composition. His cello concertos, for example, start at RV 399 and go on up consecutively through RV 424. They start with the C Major, then C Minor, D Major, and so on until B Flat Major. JS Bach’s compositions use BWV numbers and also are organized by type. Both of those were used by people who cataloged their works later, not the composers themselves. Opus numbers were mostly used a little later, and were used by the composers themselves as they published their compositions. Chopin’s works are a good example of this style.
ETA. The catalog numbers do tend to get a little messy, as some compositions are determined to not have been written by who they were previously attributed to and so have their number removed from the catalog. There’s also sometimes recently discovered works that are genuine having numbers added on at the end of a catalog, so that a number might go from the 200s to the 1000s for similar pieces, because the latter were discovered after the initial catalog was completed.
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/8 "2022-05-13T03:03:58Z")
> [@jebert](#):
>
> I have seen classical music listed in programs, sometimes with a K as in the thread title, and sometimes with an Op. as in Concerto No. 3 in B minor Op. 61. I know the Op stands for opus, but what does the K stand for? And what do they really mean? Are there 218 other concertos in A major? Is a K just another name for an Op.?
Just for fun, I looked both of those pieces up. They’re both violin concertos, so it makes sense that they would be part of the same performance. Whatever orchestra was performing them must have had a virtuoso violinist available to perform with them.
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### Author:  [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/9 "2022-05-13T03:55:23Z")
Here’s a list of classical music catalogues; K for Mozart, BWV for JS Bach and RV for Vivaldi, mentioned above, are among the best known. There’s also Hob for Haydn, TWV for Telemann (who were both very prolific) and WoO for “without opus number” for unnumbered works of composers including Beethoven.
> **[Catalogues of classical compositions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogues_of_classical_compositions)**
>
> Pages for logged out editors learn more
>
>
> This article gives an overview of various catalogues of classical compositions that have come into general use.
> While the opus numbering system has long been the standard manner in which individual compositions are identified and referenced, it is far from universal, and there have been many different applications of the system. Very few composers gave opus numbers to all of their published works without exception:
> There are cases where works t...
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/10 "2022-05-13T04:35:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> Köchel did an important job but had a really bad hairstyle.
>
> [Ludwig Ritter von Köchel Issues the Köchel-Verzeichnis of Mozart's Works : History of Information](https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=3048)
I dunno, I think it makes him look kinda distinguished, like a Mayor.
…of the Munchkin City/In the County of the Land of Oz…
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/11 "2022-05-13T13:52:10Z")
I really thought @K364 should have been the user to answer this question.
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### Author:  [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/12 "2022-05-13T13:59:12Z")
Too slow on the draw I guess.
BTW, “K” numbers are used for other composers, Domenico Scarlatti being the most famous. That “K” is for Ralph Kirkpatrick a famous harpsichordist.
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### Author:  [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/13 "2022-05-13T21:39:07Z")
In Peter Schikele’s P.D.Q. Bach concerts, he would introduce P.D.Q. compositions with something like, “The Abduction of Figaro, Canine Cantata: ‘Wachet Arf!’ (Schickele number K9.)” The classical music enthusiasts in the audience would laugh appreciatively while the people who only knew it was supposed to be a funny concert never got the reference.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/14 "2022-05-13T21:42:47Z")
Another question, why are opus numbers so random? Why do some composers publish as Opus 39 when they didn’t have Opi 1-38?
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### Author:  [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/15 "2022-05-13T22:02:28Z")
Same thought exactly!
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/16 "2022-05-13T22:18:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> Another question, why are opus numbers so random? Why do some composers publish as Opus 39 when they didn’t have Opi 1-38?
They actually do, it’s just that those other compositions tend to be less well known. Here’s the wiki for Beethoven’s works, neatly lined up from opus 1 through 138.
> **[List of compositions by Ludwig van Beethoven](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Ludwig_van_Beethoven)**
>
> The list of compositions of Ludwig van Beethoven consists of 722 works written over forty-five years, from his earliest work in 1782 (variations for piano on a march by Ernst Christoph Dressler) when he was only eleven years old and still in Bonn, until his last work just before his death in Vienna in 1827. Beethoven composed works in all the main genres of classical music, including symphonies, concertos, string quartets, piano sonatas and opera. His compositions range from solo works to thos
Chopin’s are listed here. Opus 4 was published posthumously but the others are all in order.
> **[List of compositions by Frédéric Chopin by opus number](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Chopin_by_opus_number)**
>
> Most of Chopin's compositions were for solo piano, although he did compose two piano concertos (his concertos No. 1 and No. 2 are two of the romantic piano concerto repertoire's most often-performed pieces) as well as some other music for ensembles. His larger scale works such as sonatas, the four scherzi, the four ballades, the Fantaisie in F minor, Op. 49, and the Barcarole in F♯ major, Op. 60 have cemented a solid place within the repertoire, as well as shorter works like his polonaises, maz...
The “missing” opus numbers can be thought of as being similar to all the songs that are missing from a pop artists “greatest hits” album if those artists had named their songs Album 1, Song 1; Album 1, Song 2; Album 5, Song 7 and so on rather than giving them names like Hey Jude or Thriller.
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### Author:  [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2022, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/17 "2022-05-13T22:18:26Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> Another question, why are opus numbers so random? Why do some composers publish as Opus 39 when they didn’t have Opi 1-38?
“Opi” ??? 🙂
anyway you could have unpublished opera:
> From about 1800, composers usually assigned an opus number to a work or set of works upon publication. After approximately 1900, they tended to assign an opus number to a composition whether published or not. However, practices were not always perfectly consistent or logical. For example, early in his career, Beethoven selectively numbered his compositions (some published without opus numbers), yet in later years, he published early works with high opus numbers. Likewise, some posthumously published works were given high opus numbers by publishers, even though some of them were written early in Beethoven’s career.
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### Author:  [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)
#### Post date: [May 14, 2022, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-k-as-in-concerto-no-5-in-a-major-k-219/964348/18 "2022-05-14T14:32:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> Opi 1-38
Plural of opus: opera!
ETA: Damn you, DPRK!