# What is the last great symphony? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 16, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388 "2014-12-16T12:52:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/1 "2014-12-16T12:52:34Z")
Pretty much the title says it all. I’m interested in your opinion or a generally-recognized answer. Orchestral only, please. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/2 "2014-12-16T13:10:40Z")
I don’t follow serious modern music, I’m afraid, but the most recently assembled and recorded symphony that I really like is Beethoven’s Tenth Symphony. Yes, I’m serious. I’ve got the recording. Two different ones were released in 1988: > **[Symphony No. 10 (Beethoven/Cooper)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._10_(Beethoven/Cooper))** > > Ludwig van Beethoven's Symphony No. 10 in E♭ major is a hypothetical work, assembled in 1988 by Barry Cooper from Beethoven's fragmentary sketches for the first movement. All the sketches assembled were clearly intended for the same symphony, which would have followed the Ninth, since they appear together in several small groups, and there is consensus that Beethoven did intend to compose another symphony. Cooper's score was first performed at a concert given in 1988 by the Royal Philharmonic So... ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/3 "2014-12-16T13:12:43Z")
Was thinking “last” in terms of year composed rather than year of the performance. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/4 "2014-12-16T13:24:38Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Was thinking “last” in terms of year composed rather than year of the performance. That’s also the year of “composition”, since it was assembled from pieces Beethoven had never put together (Or, critics argued, he never intended to put together). Prior to 1988, there was no “tenth” symphony in any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/5 "2014-12-16T13:37:40Z")
I’m not a huge fan of his music, but Shostokovich is famous in part for his symphonies, and his 15th and final symphony premiered in 1972: > **[Symphony No. 15 (Shostakovich)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._15_%28Shostakovich%29)** > > The Symphony No. 15 in A major, Op. 141, composed between late 1970 and July 29, 1971, is the final symphony by Dmitri Shostakovich. It was his first purely instrumental and non-programmatic symphony since the Tenth from 1953. Shostakovich began to plan and sketch the Fifteenth in late 1970, with the intention of composing for himself a cheerful work to mark his 65th birthday the next year. After completing the sketch score in April 1971, he wrote the orchestral score in June while The Fifteenth ... “Great symphony” could mean any number of things. I’m sure great symphonies in some sense are being written, but few reach a large number of people, and almost nothing past the late 19th, early 20th (Mahler, etc.) is regularly played. ---
**Author:** ![Art\_Rock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/art_rock/32/525_2.png) [@Art\_Rock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Art_Rock)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/6 "2014-12-16T14:01:41Z")
“Orchestra only” is a severe and rather peculiar limitation (there goes Gorecki 3, arguably the last widely recognized great symphony, 1977). ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/7 "2014-12-16T14:11:33Z")
Here are some post-WWII symphonies that I consider well worth listening to: **Messiaen** - _Turangalila_ (1949) **Dutilleux** - _Symphony n°1_ (1951) **Prokofiev** - _Symphony n°7_ (1952) **Shostakovich** - _Symphony n°13 Babi Yar_ (1962) **Britten** - _Cello-Symphony_ (1963) **Sallinen** _Symphony n°3_ (1975) **Lutoslawski** _Symphony n°3_ (1983) **Lutoslawski** _Symphony n°4_ (1992) Among these I bet that the Messiaen, Prokofiev and Shostakovitch symphonies are the most often recorded and performed. My personal favourite is Prokofiev 7, closely followed by Dutilleux 1, Messiaen and Britten (in that order). ---
**Author:** ![Art\_Rock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/art_rock/32/525_2.png) [@Art\_Rock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Art_Rock)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/8 "2014-12-16T14:38:53Z")
Shostakovich 13 is not “orchestra only”. It \*is \*a masterpiece though. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/9 "2014-12-16T14:54:30Z")
Oops, you’re right of course. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/10 "2014-12-16T16:42:20Z")
[Górecki’s Symphony No. 3](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._3_(G%C3%B3recki)) is the most recent symphony I can think of that has achieved wide popularity (not that that’s necessarily the same as being “great”), but it does include vocals. ETA: Oops, I see **Art Rock** already mentioned this. Shostakovich may well have been the last great symphon_ist_. The “last” in the thread title implies there won’t be any more great symphonies in the future. I hope that isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/11 "2014-12-16T16:46:27Z")
I don’t know that I’d rate Shostakovich’s symphonies with the greatest of all time, but I’d agree that he’s the most recent compsoer whose symphonies are likely to show up regularly on a typical orchestra’s playlist. ---
**Author:** ![Art\_Rock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/art_rock/32/525_2.png) [@Art\_Rock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Art_Rock)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/12 "2014-12-16T17:03:07Z")
Some fairly recent (post-Shostakovich) all-orchestral symphonies that I like very much (“great” is undefined anyway): Hovhaness - Symphony No. 50 Mount St. Helens (1982) Sallinen - Symphony No. 6 From a New Zealand Diary (1990) Rautavaara - Symphony No. 7 Angel of Light (1994) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/13 "2014-12-16T17:38:58Z")
I was very impressed by Don Gillis’s [Symphony X](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rcDMG7mTFw) (Big D) from 1967. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/14 "2014-12-16T18:54:49Z")
> [@Art\_Rock](#): > > Some fairly recent (post-Shostakovich) all-orchestral symphonies that I like very much (“great” is undefined anyway): > … > Sallinen - Symphony No. 6 From a New Zealand Diary (1990) > Rautavaara - Symphony No. 7 Angel of Light (1994) Hmmm, I’ll listen to these. Sallinen 3 is quite impressive and I like Rautavaara’s music although he has an annoying tendency to recycle exactly the same melodic turns and kettledrum crashes all the time. I can’t listen to more than 2-3 works of his in a row. Still, it’s good, accessible and appealing music. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/15 "2014-12-16T22:50:52Z")
Tchaikovsky 6 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/16 "2014-12-17T03:22:38Z")
One that impresed me when I saw it on TV in the 70’s as a kid: > **[Norman Dello Joio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Dello_Joio)** > > Norman Dello Joio (January 24, 1913 – July 24, 2008) was an American composer active for over half a century. He won a Pulitzer Prize in 1957. > Dello Joio was born in New York City to Italian immigrants. He began his musical career as organist and choir director at the Star of the Sea Church on City Island in New York at age 14. His father, Casimiro Dello Joio, was an organist, pianist, part-time composer, and vocal coach and coached many opera stars from the Metropolitan Opera. He taught Norma... > [@](#): > > In 1965, Dello Joio received the Emmy Award for the “most outstanding music written for television in the 1964-1965 Season” for his score to the 1964 NBC television special “The Louvre.” The composer created a five movement suite for wind band entitled ‘Scenes from “The Louvre.”’ The suite was commissioned by Baldwin-Wallace College for their symphonic band, and was premiered in on March 13, 1966 with the composer conducting. The thing that amazes me is that such a symphony was made originally for a TV documentary. It has become just a little bit popular among university orchestras in the USA to perform. [QUOTE] The University of Arizona Wind Symphony in concert September 26, 2013, performing Norman Dello Joio's Scenes from "The Louvre," under the direction of Kevin M. Holzman. [/QUOTE] > **[Norman Dello Joio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Dello_Joio)** > > Norman Dello Joio (January 24, 1913 – July 24, 2008) was an American composer active for over half a century. He won a Pulitzer Prize in 1957. > Dello Joio was born in New York City to Italian immigrants. He began his musical career as organist and choir director at the Star of the Sea Church on City Island in New York at age 14. His father, Casimiro Dello Joio, was an organist, pianist, part-time composer, and vocal coach and coached many opera stars from the Metropolitan Opera. He taught Norma... Link to the documentary with the original more magnificent score: For more recent times I do think that the scores of many movies can qualify here. Specially when the composers do organize the score to perform it in an auditorium. Like _The Lord of the Rings_ symphony by Howard Shore. No links to the full one as it has some parts with choral bits. But [The Lighting of the Beacons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuTSIbHDLAg) part will always be memorable. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/17 "2014-12-17T06:36:09Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Tchaikovsky 6 Yes, except that Rachmaninoff 2 is later. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/18 "2014-12-17T08:04:00Z")
I’ll listen to the Beethoven 10 sometime, CalMeacham, and I’ll listen to the ones others have suggested (especially if there’s a link), thanks. I did listen to the Symphony of Sorrowful Songs today. It’s fine, maybe its greatness grows on one. I certainly didn’t experience the rich imagery of a destroyed Europe one YouTuber talked about. By orchestral only I meant only that it was written for an orchestra and didn’t intend to exclude a chorus. I would like to exclude any operas. Movie scores count if the music is arranged in movements and it was written for an orchestra, sure. And, of course, you or at least somebody reckon it great. I don’t care if you mean Alexander the or Tony the Tiger. ---
**Author:** ![Art\_Rock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/art_rock/32/525_2.png) [@Art\_Rock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Art_Rock)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/19 "2014-12-17T08:37:46Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > I’ll listen to the Beethoven 10 sometime, CalMeacham, and I’ll listen to the ones others have suggested (especially if there’s a link), thanks. > > I did listen to the Symphony of Sorrowful Songs today. It’s fine, maybe its greatness grows on one. I certainly didn’t experience the rich imagery of a destroyed Europe one YouTuber talked about. > > By orchestral only I meant only that it was written for an orchestra and didn’t intend to exclude a chorus. I would like to exclude any operas. > > Movie scores count if the music is arranged in movements and it was written for an orchestra, sure. And, of course, you or at least somebody reckon it great. I don’t care if you mean Alexander the or Tony the Tiger. Symphonies by definition exclude operas and movie scores. Looks like you are asking the wrong question. If you are looking for any composition for an orchestra, then various movie score excerpts would qualify, since they are regularly recorded and performed (thinking of major themes from Star Wars, Schindlers List, and so on). ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388/20 "2014-12-17T08:58:19Z")
Since you asked for links, here are some to the lesser-known (but great IMHO) symphonies on my list: - Dutilleux 1 (1951) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhcHRS3NIcI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhcHRS3NIcI) - Britten Cello-Symphony (1963) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3VhIvqSA\_U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3VhIvqSA_U) - Lutoslawski 3 (1983) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0aJHZ7LBMc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0aJHZ7LBMc) - Lutoslawski 4 (1992) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STq69crFq5g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STq69crFq5g) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-last-great-symphony/707388.md?page=2)