# What is the legal reasoning that 'allows' ending birthright citizenship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [January 24, 2025, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335 "2025-01-24T16:16:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/61 "2025-06-27T18:46:03Z")
As I understand the ruling, Federal District Court injunctions can now only be granted in the specific case of the party asking for it or, in the case of a class action suit, the members of that class. Is that correct? Even when the Court find that actions being prohibited are unconstitutional? Suppose the District Court denies the injunction. An appeal may be filed with the appropriate Circuit Court of Appeals. Is that right? That Court then finds in favor of the appellant, based on constitutional grounds.. Is the injunction limited to the specific case? In other words, do Court of Appeals decisions apply to just that District or all the Districts in that Circuit? Hypothetically, the current administration issues an EO deeming that warrants and probable cause are not necessary for searching the cars of “birthright citizens” . A birthright citizen is arrested after such a search and his legal team requests dismissal of the charges and an injunction halting the practice. Fourth Amendment and all. If they win, the decision applies only to him? And the government elects not to appeal because an appellate or even USSC decision against the government would have far reaching application. Meanwhile, hundreds of other birthrighters are subject to the same rights violations. Maybe arrested, maybe not. If the original case is lost at the District level, could the appeals court grant an emergency hearing if they saw blatant constitutional violations? How soon before different Circuits reach different conclusions and USSC hears a case. Too late to hundreds or thousands (or more) any good, I assume. Which is, maybe, the plan. I’m pretty sue I’m gettinig some of this wrong so please "straight"en me out. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/62 "2025-06-27T19:08:49Z")
Apologies - I haven’t read the decision. But I’m unclear what mechanism would be preferable to the current one - with expedited appeals. Possibly directly to the Supremes. Seems to clear the path for an administration to cause a heckuva lotta harm before it gets effectively addressed/corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/63 "2025-06-27T19:09:29Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > it seems like the exact reason why a lower court can impact federal law in this way is to avoid this exact nightmare scenario- where federal law applies differently depending on where you are. Yes. We’ve speculated over the last few years where the front lines in a new US Civil War might be drawn. I think this ruling may provide such a framework. If this ruling stands, and Trump issues other EOs that impact on people’s rights, you could end up with a patchwork quilt of overlapping rights. If you live here, you have right ABC, if you live there, you have rights BCD, and if you live that other place, you have rights CDE. Hilarity ensues. > [@doreen](#): > > It also , strangely does not say they will not be citizens, only that Federal agencies are not to issue documents such as passports or accept documents from states that purport to recognize US citizenship. I don’t understand the reason for that. It’s a work-around. It’s not clear that they actually have the power to deny citizenship, but merely issuing documents is an administrative task. Do you have a _right_ to a passport? Well, you can be denied one in certain circumstances, and can be required to hand it over in other circumstances, so no. So they don’t explicitly deny citizenship, they just make it impossible to do any of the the things citizens can do. Plus, it makes it harder to prove you’re a citizen when ICE comes calling. “No papers? Why not? Oh, ‘the government refused to give me any’? What a cop-out, you migrant scum!” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/64 "2025-06-27T19:28:00Z")
I am 99% sure that at least one court will side with the administration if it comes to that - even if only so they can’t manipulate things in the way you describe, where the government loses every case and chooses not to appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/65 "2025-06-27T19:52:48Z")
What I’m wondering is how ending birthright citizenship would work in practice. A woman arrives at a hospital in labor and gives birth to a baby. _Presumably_ the city/county/state issues a birth certificate whether or not the parents are documented or undocumented. But when and by whom is the determination made that the newborn is a US citizen by birth? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/66 "2025-06-27T20:01:28Z")
Many other countries don’t have birthright citizenship. I guess they would put the citizenship onto the birth certificate? I think there have been generations of Turks in Germany who are still not German citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/67 "2025-06-27T20:05:34Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > But when and by whom is the determination made that the newborn is a US citizen by birth? Maybe Social Security Administration when issuing their SSN. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/68 "2025-06-27T20:23:37Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > But when and by whom is the determination made that the newborn is a US citizen by birth? By the city/county/state issuing a certificate of live birth in a city/county/state of the United States. With very limited exceptions (the children of foreign diplomats), all persons born in the United States are citizens of the United States. > **Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution** > **Section 1**. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. > [Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_1:_Citizenship_and_civil_rights) The caselaw on this subject is incredibly clear. > **[United States v. Wong Kim Ark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark)** > > This is an accepted version of this page > > > > b)The phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" should be interpreted "in light of the common law". United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), is a landmark decision of the U.S. Supreme Court which held that "a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on busines... > **[Elk v. Wilkins](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk_v._Wilkins)** > > Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94 (1884), was a United States Supreme Court landmark 1884 decision with respect to the citizenship status of Indians. > John Elk, a Winnebago Indian, was born on an Indian reservation within the territorial bounds of United States. He later resided off-reservation in Omaha, Nebraska, where he renounced his former tribal allegiance and claimed birthright citizenship by virtue of the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The case came about after Elk tried to re... ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/69 "2025-06-27T20:24:47Z")
ICE detains the mother and child until proof of citizenship is established. If not quick enough, off to El Salvador for them. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/70 "2025-06-27T20:45:57Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > But when and by whom is the determination made that the newborn is a US citizen by birth? > > By the city/county/state issuing a certificate of live birth in a city/county/state of the United States. > With very limited exceptions (the children of foreign diplomats), all persons born in the United States are citizens of the United States. The president and his administration disagree. Isn’t that what we were discussing in this very thread? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/71 "2025-06-27T20:49:32Z")
Yes, Trump is trying to overturn case law that’s been settled and relied on for over a century. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/72 "2025-06-27T21:03:29Z")
When has something being settled stopped him from pursuing what he wants? And the OP says > I’m interested in what the legal argument is that the Trump administration is using to justify ending birthright with an executive order vs. a constitutional amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/73 "2025-06-27T21:06:59Z")
And today SCOTUS effectively said, “Yeah, we’re gonna take a pass ruling on this issue for now and let the lower courts fight it out.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/74 "2025-06-27T21:14:58Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Yes, Trump is trying to overturn case law that’s been settled and relied on for over a century. Worked with _Brown v Board of Education_ ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/75 "2025-06-27T23:42:08Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > But when and by whom is the determination made that the newborn is a US citizen by birth? I looked it up in answer to another thread According to [8 CFR 301.1](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/8/301.1), to be documented as a U.S. citizen you apply for a passport if in the United States and go to an embassy or consulate if outside the United States. If naturalized you get a certificate stating you are a naturalized citizen. I don’t know if it answers you question exactly since it is about documentation, not determination. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/76 "2025-06-27T23:56:43Z")
Okay, thanks but even a child born without birthright citizenship in thr United States would receive a birth certificate that shows US birth. So where is the determination made that the child is not eligible for a US passport? See, it’s easy to _say_ we’re going to deny birthright citizenship but harder to implement. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/77 "2025-06-27T23:58:20Z")
Birth certificates usually indicate the parents’ birthplaces. Presumably, those with two foreign-born parents would have an extra burden of proof. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/78 "2025-06-27T23:59:22Z")
I didn’t know that one’s birth certificate listed the birth place of one’s parents. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/79 "2025-06-27T23:59:37Z")
They don’t ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2025, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/80 "2025-06-28T00:07:15Z")
It’s not the Birth Certificate, it’s the Certificate of Live Birth (seen [here](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-acc.pdf)) note the “BIRTHPLACE (State, Territory, or Foreign Country)” box for both the mother and father. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335.md?page=5)