# What is the legal reasoning that 'allows' ending birthright citizenship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [January 24, 2025, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335 "2025-01-24T16:16:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanubv.2/32/3260_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUBv.2)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/161 "2026-04-01T15:21:58Z")
I watched the first ten or so minutes and I got the feeling that it won’t go well for El Gordo. Of course, anything can happen, but justices Brown, Sotomayor and Barrett did not sound on board with the madministration. I hope as it goes on little donnie has one if his tantrums. Go ahead, a-hole, call them dumb to their faces. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/162 "2026-04-01T15:40:05Z")
And now he’s left. Even though visitors are required to stay for the proceedings and may not leave in the middle. But when has he followed court rules? ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/163 "2026-04-01T15:45:38Z")
SCOTUSblog says: > For those worried about whether that’s appropriate, there are public seats in the back that rotate out every 10 minutes. So coming and going isn’t new! Brian ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/164 "2026-04-01T15:47:03Z")
Thanks for the update. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/165 "2026-04-01T16:16:48Z")
Soon (as I type this) Scotusblog discussion of what happened in court: > **[Advisory Opinions broadcast: President Donald Trump and Birthright Citizenship](https://www.scotusblog.com/2026/04/advisory-opinions-broadcast-president-donald-trump-and-birthright-citizenship/)** > > Oral arguments in Trump v. Barbara, on the constitutionality of President Donald Trump’s executive order on birthright citizenship, have concluded, but the conversation isn’t over. Listen now to a special \[…\] Brian ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/166 "2026-04-01T17:15:24Z")
I predict that Scotus will uphold birthright citizenship. But that won’t preclude an amendment being proposed to change the Constitution on that matter. Which is the proper course of action to initiate such a change…not an executive order. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/167 "2026-04-01T17:38:57Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Which is the proper course of action to initiate such a change…not an executive order. I agree about the executive order, but in point of fact “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” is not as unambiguous as it should be, and since that is the current law of the land, it does require interpretation by the courts. For example, the USA vs Wong Kim Ark decision did not actually get applied to Native Americans, whose citizenship resulted from separate legislation in 1924. There should be a clear and unambiguous Constitutional Amendment, that specifes how jus soli and jus sanguinis are applied in the USA, and what exceptions there are around those who hold other citizenships (e.g. diplomats giving birth in the US). But since we’re that special form of modern government, a dysfunctionally democratic republic, such a thing is unpossible. ---
**Author:** ![Win\_Place\_Show](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/win_place_show/32/13469_2.png) [@Win\_Place\_Show](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Win_Place_Show)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/168 "2026-04-01T17:39:32Z")
When should we be expecting their ruling to be released? 4:00 today? Next week? Sometime in October? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/169 "2026-04-01T17:44:18Z")
> [@Win\_Place\_Show](#): > > When should we be expecting their ruling to be released? Typically, by the end of the term. (June?) ---
**Author:** ![knavette57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knavette57/32/3871_2.png) [@knavette57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knavette57)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/170 "2026-04-01T17:59:41Z")
Amendments require all 50 states to vote on that, right? (Enlighten me if I am incorrect). I recall that was the case with the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment). ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/171 "2026-04-01T18:02:06Z")
**Methods of Proposing an Amendment:** - **Congressional Vote:** A two-thirds vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate (used for all 27 amendments). - **National Convention:** A convention called for by two-thirds (34 of 50) of the state legislatures. This method has never been used. **Methods of Ratification:** - **State Legislatures:** Ratification by three-fourths (38 of 50) of state legislatures. - **State Conventions:** Ratification by special conventions in three-fourths of the states (used only once, for the 21st Amendment). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/172 "2026-04-01T18:05:35Z")
If, hypothetically, the US ends birthright citizenship, we might end up in the situation in certain countries in the Persian Gulf region, with a large population of non-citizen guest workers, as many as 80% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2026, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/173 "2026-04-01T18:47:13Z")
I would be truly amazed if the decision is announced before the very last session of the term in June. It should be 9-0 to overturn the EO but Alito and Thomas will once again put politics above reason and vote to uphold. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2026, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/174 "2026-04-02T01:08:08Z")
Per Alito, history and tradition are important, except when they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2026, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/175 "2026-04-02T01:37:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > If, hypothetically, the US ends birthright citizenship, In no case is the US ending Birthright Citizenship. trumps executive order only effects a small section of people born in the USA. > [@Jas09](#): > > (1) when that person’s mother was unlawfully present in the United States and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth, or (2) when that person’s mother’s presence in the United States at the time of said person’s birth was lawful but temporary (such as, but not limited to, visiting the United States under the auspices of the Visa Waiver Program or visiting on a student, work, or tourist visa) and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2026, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/176 "2026-04-02T01:51:04Z")
That sounds like most people. I can show that I was born in America, I can’t show that my parents were here legally at that time. I can show where they were born, but not the legal status of any of their parents. Etc, etc. Only a lucky few can document their citizenship by some means other than birthplace over time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2026, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/177 "2026-04-02T03:50:07Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > That sounds like most people. I can show that I was born in America, I can’t show that my parents were here legally at that time. From what I read, it is up to the Government to show the parents were NOT here legally. But I could be wrong. I think we all agree that the idea was stupid. Anyway from the questions posed by the Court, it seems they are not buying this. We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2026, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/178 "2026-04-02T10:31:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > If, hypothetically, the US ends birthright citizenship, > > In no case is the US ending Birthright Citizenship. trumps executive order only effects a small section of people born in the USA. Really? After I repeat the phrase used in the freaking title of the thread (“end birthright citizenship”), you chose to quibble over my meaning, when we’re 175 posts in? My point remains; the countries of the Persian Gulf have what those in favor of this idea _really_ want; a permanent underclass of people who will never achieve true belonging in the society, including citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2026, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/179 "2026-04-02T12:55:36Z")
That’s the thing - assuming this executive order is ever allowed to go into effect (which I very much doubt) , there’s no way of telling how it willl be implemented. There is supposedly guidance to Federal agencies regarding issuing Social Security cards and passports but I’ve never seen a description of what that guidance is. If it was an established fact that the government would have to prove the parents were here illegally , there wouldn’t have been questions from justices about whether people would have to show up at the delivery room with citizenship documents or how what would happen to foundlings.“Foundlings” are more common than most people think - it doesn’t just apply to infants found in the mall restroom. It also applies to babies born in hospitals when the parents are unknown - when I worked in CPS, prior to safe haven laws , it was not uncommon for a mother to give a false name and address and abandon the baby in the hospital. And then there are the children left at fire houses etc under safe haven laws- also foundlings. The law currently presumes that a child found in the US before a certain age ( five, I think) was born in the US and therefore is a citizen unless proven not to have been born in the US before a certain age. It doesn’t say anything about presuming the parents were here legally unless proven otherwise. And there’s certainly no way to tell what would happen in the future - if Trump can decide not to issue documents to people whose parents weren’t here legally who were born after some certain date , then why can’t some future president make it retroactive so that I have to prove at least one of my parents was here legally when I was born? No logical reason because after al, this EO doesn’t purport to take citizenship away from certain people - it says people in those categories never were citizens and the fact that they were treated as citizens was because everyone misunderstood the 14th amendment. That order is prospective for practical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2026, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335/180 "2026-04-04T23:00:44Z")
I wonder what the existential crisis associated with birth right citizenship exists in trump’s “brain”? How are they negatively impacting him to the point it becomes an obsession with him? I would think he has better things to worry about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-legal-reasoning-that-allows-ending-birthright-citizenship/1013335.md?page=10)